How Did You Decide?

[AKA-None]

First thing was how much money was I willing to throw away if I ended up deciding this wasn’t for me

[MJH]

Originally Posted by bookdocking

In the next five years my husband and I will be purchasing our first sailboat to liveaboard and cruise.
When you bought your boat how did you decide among all the available options?
I understand 1) PRICE 2)Intended use 3)level of comfort all to be important deciding factors in making a decision but I still feel flush with far too many options in my future.
What did you do? Did you have a list of must haves/ desired features and nice but not necessary items?
I need to climb into, if you'll pardon the disturbing image, as many sailors brains as possible. If you'd be so kind, tell me your needs and how you met them, what you decided to disregard and so on, resources you utilized, the most helpful advice you received. Thanks in advance for any responses, I really appreciate the input.

This answer concerns the last sailboat I purchased.

I had been sailing a San Juan 28 in the Northwest for 11 years to British Columbia and Alaska and got the yearing to sail offshore. My voyage sailing around Vancouver Island, British Colimbia (my first exposure to Pacific Ocean waters) confirmed that I needed a boat designed for offshore passages. Based on an article in Cruising World Magazine I built a spreadsheet of over 3,000 saiboats in different rigging configurations where applicable (one boat came as either a sloop, cutter, ketch, or yawl. Across that spreadsheet I listed all the boats specifications (LOA, LWL, etc.) and computed their ratios. Then I sorted on the ratios eventually coming up with a reasonable selection to choose from. I'm very happy with my selection these last 14 years.

In addition to the ratio sorting my personal preferences included: no bowspirit, no wood decks, good tankage properly place within the boat, hull not painted, no spade rudder...skeg preferred, small cockpit which would maximize the cabin, good COMFORT and CAPSIZE ratios, good bones, and an ideal size of around 37 feet.

Since I would be buying a used boat, I had to select among those that were available within my budget.

As there is no perfect boat and tradeoffs are the rule, I ended up with a 42' boat with a painted hull, excellent tankage, and lots of necessary upgrades including rigging and sails, but it had a brand new engine with only two hours and professionally installed.

The one drawback on my selection is that I had to go across the country to purchase it and bring it home. Much better to find one in your own backyard if at all possible.

You will get out of your boat search what you put into it. My sailboat search took five years.

Good Luck.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Right. Based on your experience, what's important to you?

MVweebles, this response of yours could be read as a criticism of those people, including myself, who recommend another approach such as gaining appropriate experience for the building of a list of "things to look for" instead of just answering the question.

Mostly we've answered in that way because we think it would be more helpful to the OP.

If a person asked, "Which is the best way to cross a freeway, running or walking?" a truly helpful person might recommend re-examining the reason behind the question.

I spent many years in a business where I was asked to provide solutions which met the varied needs of my clients. I learned early on that you need to look behind the client's question to get to the fundamental requirements, and that simply providing what they have expressed a need for isn't always, in the end, helpful.

[alctel]

To back up what the guys on Wings are saying, an example of that would be boom end sheeting in the cockpit.

That was important to me, as I've sailed enough to know that being able to trim the main easily and instantly from the cockpit is important to me.

Other people are far more likely to either not care at all, or vastly prefer mid-boom sheeting on top of the companionway.

Just saying that 'boom-end sheeting is important' doesn't really help the OP, as they'll have just as many people say the opposite and they won't know what is right for them until they get a cheap boat, or charter a bunch and play around and find out what works for them

[Tetepare]

OK, as said- the more we know about you OP, the more we can share useful information. Where do you want to go, what's your risk tolerance, etc. Makes a big difference.

So I'll tell you how we got to our current boat, which is NOT the same boat I would have picked 40 years ago, and couldn't afford 20 years ago. Process of elimination.

I wanted a Beneateau 430, and looked at a number of them from Champlain to Brisbane. They were all shot.

Then I was sold on the Corbin 39, and found the PERFECT Corbin 39. So my buddy sailed his down to us so she could see it. One look in the cockpit and NO. Cockpit is too cramped to lay out and watch the stars.

Wife wanted a walk-through transom. We use the boat as home base. It's quite common that we anchor the boat and spend entire days in the dingy exploring. She's tired of up and down ladders. This was a big item.

Wife wanted refrigeration, though the right boat could have skipped that.

I was primary searcher for years. Found boats we'd like; most of the Beneteaus and Jeanneaus had destroyed interiors from years of leaks. The 47 footer leaked so bad one would think they were outdoors when it rained.

The other big problem is draft. We really need under 6'. Lots of great boats on the East Coast USA w/ 7' draft that ruled them out.

We looked at a Brewer PH. It was the best, by far, layout I have ever seen. Fit and finish was spectacular. Massive aft cabin. The boat was a wreck- saturated decks & core, not maintained, rigging needed immediate replacement. If it were in better condition Wife would have given up her walk-through transom.

I like to sleep in the V berth. Even though I may be sound asleep, I'll awaken if the wind direction or speed changes, it rains, whatever. I've never used an anchor alarm, didn't need one. Wife didn't care if we slept in the V berth or aft cabin, and most boats now have larger aft cabins. Ultimately I lost out on the V berth.

Finally she said "You're DONE! You've been looking for five years! We're buying a new boat NOW!" I wanted a blue water boat, she said we're getting a boat now that suites our needs now, and I can get my blue water boat later.

So she found our current boat. It has what she wanted. It's good enough for me for now. I like it. The interior is in great condition, because previous owners never used it. The exterior was terrible because previous owners never used it, or cared for it. It leaked like a sieve, but the decks are pretty dry. I needed a TON of work before I'd even take it off dock (you know, like batteries not in boxes and unsecured.) None of the electronics work because the previous owners did everything half-assed. All the brightwork is in-process of restoration. Did I mention the freshwater pump was unsecured, and sprayed water all over, and had saturated the subfloor?

Now, on the above, that's one of the things you want to consider. I like to tinker, I grew up on sailboats, I know where to get parts, and I know how to fix things. If I had to pay the yard to do the work it the boat would have made zero sense. Oh, and BTW, Wife also works on the boat, so there are two of us to share the restoration.

So some things to ponder.

[bookdocking]

Originally Posted by wingssail

MVweebles, this response of yours could be read as a criticism of those people, including myself, who recommend another approach such as gaining appropriate experience for the building of a list of "things to look for" instead of just answering the question.

Mostly we've answered in that way because we think it would be more helpful to the OP.

If a person asked, "Which is the best way to cross a freeway, running or walking?" a truly helpful person might recommend re-examining the reason behind the question.

I spent many years in a business where I was asked to provide solutions which met the varied needs of my clients. I learned early on that you need to look behind the client's question to get to the fundamental requirements, and that simply providing what they have expressed a need for isn't always, in the end, helpful.

OP here,
Thank you for trying to help in the way you think would be most helpful to me. I can appreciate your perspective.

to borrow from your illustration, what if the person asked "how would you cross a freeway, running or walking? my response would be "I would walk across an overpass built for that express purpose because I like living and want drivers on the freeway not to wet themselves at the prospect of hitting some crazy pedestrian" One of my largest pet peeves in life is having someone try to read between the lines of my words.

That being said I expected a large variety of responses and hoped that the majority would be given in good faith. I think that is what I've received. I'm unlikely to ask what someone thinks I should get, because they don't know me, so it's not going to fit. However if I ask what you got and why, you will help me understand the tailoring process better.

[Mike OReilly]

Indeed, the only useful answer to "How did you decide?" is to learn what is important to you. What is essential to me is not necessarily going to be essential to someone else.

When we set about looking for our current boat, we'd spend a number of years learning and sailing on other boats. This included my own first boat. I bought it thinking I knew what I wanted and needed. But through this experience I learned that some things I thought were essential, were not. And a lot of things I hadn't even thought about, became indispensable.

So the first step to truly answering "how to decide" is to learn what you want and need. This depends on the individual crew, on the location, on the cruising ground, and a host of other factors.

Once you know what you want, then it's a simple matter of creating some sort of comparison form, or perhaps a spreadsheet, to compare boats. This is what we did, but again, the important step was the initial learning, not the spreadsheet.

Books and vids can help. Chatting with other cruisers and sailors is even better. But most people learn best by doing. Which is why most here recommend gaining experience, in whatever way one can.

[JPA Cate]

Hi, again, bookdocking.

I mentioned that we did have a list, of criteria, and that it had come from years of reading and sailing, and coastal cruising. It is interesting to me that both wingssail and us chose ocean racing boats for the basic first cruising boat. Wingssail and his good lady chose so well they still have theirs! Chapeau!

We lived & cruised on ours for 18 yrs. We spent about 3-1/2 years looking for what turned out to be this boat. She met all of our list specs except one: we don't sit at the nav station to do charting. However, we can chart comfortably standing. I think this choosing of an old race boat works because they are most likely to be good light air performers, and there can be a special pleasure in that. Race boats, especially old race boats, were fairly heavily built to withstand ocean racing conditions.

The boat we upgraded to, we were able to afford because the US dollar was almost double in value of the Australian one at the time, so very favorable to us. We looked at a number of interesting boats, but kept on saying no, and had just about given up on finding what we wanted. We were about ready to put down a bid on a recently re-fit catamaran (but it had 2 Volvo saildrives). Fortunately, the owner/builder decided to sell this boat due to family circumstances, and it was designed to be a cruise boat. It was fairly light displacement for her length (46 on deck 44 on the waterline), and we think she is beautiful below decks. The boat is made from strip plank western red cedar, coated inside and out with epoxy and glass, so the hull is painted outside. Compared to fiberglass, paint is fragile. Needs to be renewed. The joinery is very nice. Sorry for bragging.

I support the idea of building a list of requirements. However, as Mike, and many others have already written, what's actually right for Jim and me would probably not fit for many people. For instance, we have no freezer. Our first year cruising was without refrigeration, and we learned to cope, so just plain refrigeration is fine for us, and we have to scrounge to get ice when we want it. We learned to live in hot places without air conditioning: we learned how to ventilate the boat, put energy into building a reefing windscoop for the 36 footer, and Jim placed a fan to suck in cooler night air into the V-berth. Imho, boats don't come complete and perfect, what one needs is a good platform on which to place the modifications you and your spouse want, consistent with your means. And that is based on the assumption that you will like sailing and living on the water (which one or both may decide they don't like). Hence the concept of a starter boat, and Jim's boat before I met him with his 30 footer, had been a Catalina 22 (but he'd had even smaller ones before it).

Being involved in racing really emphasizes a lot of the fun of sailing. People who don't, don't learn so much about sail trim, often. Choice is yours.

For most cruisers, I think success with it as a lifestyle is largely based on self reliance and being able to do your own maintenance; this is especially true where income is limited. People who plan on just paying others to do it wind up being delayed (you can miss a season), and sometimes dissatisfied, so your plan to be active with the maintenance stands you in very good stead, imo. Also, staying fiscally comfortable, and emotionally flexible are very important, as well.


Ann

[Tayana42]

Like many people with cruising size boats we had a variety of smaller simpler boats over many years before buying this size boat. I had dreamed of a real ocean sailing boat for years but never really saw it as a possibility. When we moved to California, kids grown and gone, we started looking for a boat safe and comfortable enough for the Pacific Ocean. We spent more than a year looking at boats in the 35-37 foot range from Santa Barbara to San Diego. We had lists of course but not experience with real cruising. We were driven by more or less romantic notions from reading the exploits of the many pioneers of ocean cruising. I knew more about strategies for rounding Cape Horn than I knew about entering my home harbor in the fog using radar.

We were in San Diego looking at a 37’ boat and it wasn’t the right one for us. As we were walking away on the dock we passed this beautiful larger boat with a for sale sign. My wife said, “ how about this one?” So we looked at it and instantly fell in love. We knew we wanted a boat that was strongly built, had good tankage, reliable Diesel engine, autopilot, beautiful interior with comfortable sleeping for us and our grown kids as guests, a fully workable galley, a cutter rig for ease of sail handling, no teak decks, a moderate fin keel with strong skeg hung rudder, a comfortable and safe cockpit. But most importantly we wanted a boat that whispered lovingly to us. This one knew all the right sweet nothings for our ears. In short, we got lucky. She came from a yard with an impeccable reputation for quality that is still in business and still helpful even though the boat is now over 30 years old and we are the third owners. Like so many others, we didn’t know how much we didn’t know. But the love affair was immediate and it has lasted more than 20 years beginning with weekend and weeklong cruising, then three years living aboard and cruising the California coast and to Mexico, and now comfortable California costal cruising. We learned about radar, electrics, plumbing, holding tanks and pump outs, propane, multiple bilge pumps, chart plotters, windlass and anchoring systems, portable generators and, oh yes, sailing too. We learned about Santa Anas and heavy weather sailing and clawing our way off shore and heaving to in a gale. And you will also.

It would be hard for us to think about buying another boat. We have so many memories of adventures with children, grandchildren and alone by ourselves that we can’t imagine parting with this lover. Still, as we get older, we do wish a few things. It would be good to have walk through or sugar scoop transom for easier boarding from the dinghy or the water. It would be nice to have an island queen berth that is easier to get in and out of and easier to make the bed, but still have good sea berths. Full battens and a lazy-jack bag would be nice as would an electric winch for raising the mainsail. And last but certainly not least, solar panels, lots of them.

Sorry for the rambling response. Lots of people above have been more clear or more specific. I’m just trying to say, have your lists, know how you want to actually use the boat but keep looking until you find the one that pulls your heartstrings. Then be a faithful lover. Shower her with money and attention and new clothes and toys.

Wishing you a long and happy marriage.

[gamayun]

I love threads like this. It make me think why do I do the things I do. With the additional banter about "get more experience" versus "here's what we did," I am firmly in the latter camp. Here is the list of things that I thought about to whittle down the huge number of possibilities out there:

1) Must be easy to board with dive gear or would ideally have a platform. This eliminated canoe stern boats like Pacific Seacraft, which I still adore.

2) Had to be around $50k although I searched for boats under $70k just so I had the full perspective about boat costs. You could start looking at Yacht Trader now to see what that brings up. You might also limit the age to 30 years or younger because I lucked out at the time my boat was 25 years old and was told that I could not get insurance since I had a lien, if it had been 30 years or older. I bought my 1988 Freedom 38 for $52k in 2013.

3) Had to have a working diesel (not gas) engine and preferably a Yanmar because I was a little familiar with them. That said, it took me about a week to figure out how to change the oil and get all the necessary supplies. You might also tell the broker/owner that you want the engine cold when you go to look at the boat because starting a cold engine tells you a lot right there.

4) Not have been recently upfitted with newer electronics. I figured that was just going to jack the price up and I would not want to toss even 10-year-old equipment even though I wanted to choose my own.

5) Had to be between 30 and 40 feet. I was aiming for the smaller sizes because I am a single lady and didn't yet have the skills to singlehand. I ended up with a 38-footer rather than the same boat at 32 feet because of the extra closet space that I knew I'd eventually want to have. Many people told me to go small and then trade up but that seemed like a wasted step. It's not bad advice but to each their own about their level of risk. I was willing to jump straight off the cliff and worry about the landing later. Most people can't stand the very thought of not having a well thought out plan with all the steps articulated to create a soft landing and avoid failure. YMMV.

6) It had to be easy to handle and not require 10 crew to get off the dock. I was looking at a really cheap IOR boat at one time and my conversations with people I trusted (yeah, not always my CF peeps) suggested it would be a horrible idea to take offshore and it would not be a good boat to set up for singlehanding. It's good to listen to all opinions and figure out which ones you're not likely to land well with even if you don't really know why yet. Unfortunately for the person who did take that IOR boat, it's at the bottom of Monterey Bay. They were picked up by the CG so they were lucky and lived to tell the tale. Kynntana has taken me on some wild adventures and though she's not everyone's cuppa tea in a boat and I probably won't ever round Cape Horn in her, she's solid and easier to singlehand than my 20-footer.

8) It had to have a working fridge. (I live vicariously through Ann and Jim for the day I am seriously cruising full-time but I would never want to live without a fridge. That's just cray-cray, I say.) I passed on a Freedom that was being raced a lot and the fridge wasn't working. It made me think this was a boat that was being rode hard and put away wet so there were probably a lot of other things that would be similarly neglected. Since I was looking for "cheap" I needed to find a boat with good bones, which is pretty subjective for especially for newbies. Find a good surveyor no matter what you do, but don't be intimidated (as I was at the time) about crawling into deep dark spaces to track down signs of leaks, wet wood, or corrosion.

9) It could not have two heads. This seems like a silly thing but for some reason, it just seemed asinine to have twice as many things to go wrong in 36 feet of space (the other 2 feet are the dive platform). Some people might use an extra head for a storage but that just shook my insides a bit when thinking about excess crap piled up like that. Also, the idea that your guests will have privacy with their own bathroom is also asinine. There's nothing private on sailboats at the size you might be considering...

10) Lastly, it had to "feel right." I have always said that I never go against my gut but I violate that rule at times and often regret it, but not always. This is the hardest one and it's one where you just have to trust that you've talked with enough people, looked at enough boats, asked all the hard questions, and gotten back sufficiently reasonable answers to know that you and your husband will be fine with the final decision. You gotta love it all though. I recommend that you embrace the repairs, maintenance, routing plans, and decisions together. Please don't defer and minimize your capabilities in this process.

Oh, I think it took me 6 years from when I first started sailing and realized how much I loved it, to when I bought Kynntana. You are definitely on the right track. Five years are going to fly by in no time.

[gamayun]

Oh yeah....minimal teak and no traveler in the cockpit. I forgot those where on the list, too!

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by bookdocking

... if the person asked "how would you cross a freeway, running or walking? my response would be "I would walk across an overpass built for that express purpose because I like living and want drivers on the freeway not to wet themselves at the prospect of hitting some crazy pedestrian" ...

Ah! But that wasn't one of the options.

See? you are doing exactly what we CF members have been doing. Instead of just answering the direct question you offer advice that you think would be more useful.

By the way, I did give you my criteria for choosing a boat, in addition to advice which I thought would be more helpful.

[Tetepare]

Originally Posted by gamayun

Oh yeah....minimal teak and no traveler in the cockpit. I forgot those where on the list, too!

Dammit I forgot those too!

[gamayun]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Ah! But that wasn't one of the options.



See? you are doing exactly what we CF members have been doing. Instead of just answering the direct question you offer advice that you think would be more useful.



By the way, I did give you my criteria for choosing a boat, in addition to advice which I thought would be more helpful.

Actually, Wingsail, it's part of a bigger point and that is "how will you use your boat?" If the freeway is a tranquil bay, then I'd say looking for an overpass to make sure you absolutely cross safely is someone who should get a new boat that never wants anything to go wrong or break (good luck with that ...). If the freeway is sailing offshore LA/Long Beach, then I'd say you find any crossing that provides good visibility and gets you across quickly such as having good equipment (radar, VHF, etc.) and a good working engine. If the freeway is across an ocean, then the overpass mentality is a good one. Everything you do should be with the idea that one day, that ocean is likely to become a super freeway with mad speeding semi trucks and running across it would be suicide. A well built boat (or one that has been refit for those harsher conditions) is the one to find because it literally becomes your overpass to safer passage making.

[thomm225]

The thing is it's so easy to buy a $1,000-$5,000 sailboat and go sailing on your own.

That is how you can really learn and even more so if you race. I was racing as Skipper in a couple months after I bought my first sailboat.

Several have crossed oceans on boats under $2500.

I paid $2,000 for my most recent boat my 11th I think and it has handled winds to 35 knots quite nicely here on the calm waters of the Chesapeake Bay