Looking at the Amels, Swans, Hallberg Rassys - long term value?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by malbert73

All good points above but a higher end boat tends to be more expensive due to better joiner work below, and all around better structural build. Both of those translate into better longevity beyond just systems which are pretty equal on all boats

Of course this is true, and the differences, especially in structure, are very significant. And that is a key fact. It's what makes it sort of worthwhile to keep upgrading them. You won't get that money back, but you will get to keep using the boat for a long time.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Of course this is true, and the differences, especially in structure, are very significant. And that is a key fact. It's what makes it sort of worthwhile to keep upgrading them. You won't get that money back, but you will get to keep using the boat for a long time.

In last 6 years, we’ve chartered 3 nearly brand new (less than a less than 1 year old) sailboats: Beneteau Oceanis 46, Bavaria Vision 46, and Jeanneau SO 419.
All had great layouts for charters, but all had significantly less storage than our 32 year old tartan 40. And all of their interiors already felt in worse shape than in our boat- cabinets that wouldn’t latch, delaminating cabin sole around hatches, door edges with raw peeling fake wood, and creaks while sailing. Yes charter use is tougher but I got the sense that these boats would need a lot of TLC beyond systems for longevity...
But of course innovations in layout use and cockpits are also enviable

[barnakiel]

The Swan I viewed in le Marin not too long ago:


S&S designed,
Nautor built.


I can tell you this one thing - the way the boat was put together made me a believer. If that was how they did it in Finland 50 years ago then given time, technology and continuous development I can't even imagine how good their present boats can be.


Would have zero qualms buying one of those older S&S/Nautor toys, restoring, then sailing her. Money well spent and a salute to our sailing traditions.


I am not rich enough to think of 'investments', 'returns', and 'value'. I am a plain banana sailor who likes the boat to be strong, seaworthy and a pleasure to sail and to look at.


Money is like blood - you want to keep it circulating, at all costs.



You will find similar yards in many countries. Think of Rustler in the UK, Contest in NED, etc.


Well built beautiful craft abounds. Get one, save one. Definitely.


b.

[charliehows]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

My advice would be somewhat different


* Don't think about the resale value at all. All the money you spend on a boat, including the initial purchase price, is essentially money down the drain -- pure consumption. Don't spend money on a boat which you expect or need to ever see again. If you decide to later sell, whatever you get, if anything, will be a windfall.


* Don't buy a project boat. See the point above. Buy a quality boat of whatever age but which was owned by someone who spent money and labor freely and kept the boat in top condition. This is ALWAYS the better buy than a boat which needs work, even if the initial price is higher.


* If you buy a real quality boat and spend significant money and labor EVERY YEAR, and 10% of the price every year is not far off, then you can use the boat as long as you like, for decades.





Quality cruising boats don't wear out. But what is the boat? The hull? A cruising boat is more like a collection of parts, all of which need to be regularly replaced. If you keep up with the replacement of all the main elements, then the boat will always be in good condition, will always give pleasure, and will always be (relatively) reliable.


Big replacement items:


Standing rigging (every 10 years or so)
Running rigging (every 5 years or so)
Sails (every 5 to 10 years)
Deck, teak (every 20 years)
Main engine (every 20 - 25 years)
Underwater fittings (every 5 to 10 years)
Pumps, tanks, etc. (as needed)
Electronics and sensors (maximum every 10 years)
Upholstery and cushions
Rudder bearings, autopilot, steering gear elements (10 to 15 years)
Windlass motor (in my case every 3 years )
HVAC (10 to 20 years)
Refrigeration (15 to 20 years)
Various finishes
etc
etc
etc




Generally after 10 years you start doing one big thing every year. Keep up with it, and the boat will be fine indefinitely.

Caveat emptor, beautifully summarised, read it, ye who would leap off the pier, and weep.

[Cloroxbottle]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I’m not going to diagree point by point, item by item, but there’s no way any of those repairs or replacements need to be done on an Oyster with the time table presented above. You can pretty much double the timelime for replacements except for the refrigeration and pumps as needed.

True, but replacing the keel every five years gets to be a real expense...

[watchskiing]

Since this is a 2 year old post, maybe you are not a Swan owner twice over still?

I was wondering about your teak deck experience. No leaking decks sound really nice.

Found a Nautir Swan 371 that seems to be in good condition from 82 with build no 073. No leaks, but it is 40 years old now... so I am assuming one needs to replace the deck soon nonetheless?

Originally Posted by PLeffe

I almost never post but this question got to me. I own not one but two Swans. Both older. My 1980 I have owned for 18 years. It's in So. Calif. My second Swan is a 1977 which is in Panama ready to cross the Pacific this coming March. I love both of them. Best move I ever made.

Both have screw down teak decks. No leaks ever. The decks have a fiberglass top and bottom layer with closed cell non-porous foam in-between. You can drill holes in the top all day long and water can't go through and they can't/don't get soft. I can not speak to HR decks but Swan decks are built to not leak!

My cruising boat was really down on its luck when I bought it. The price was very low but I spent three times its cost fixing it and still have more to go. If I were to do it again I would buy one that was cared for and loved. Still I love the boat I have and have put three cruising seasons in on it. I have always felt safe and secure on it.

IMHO and I have the professional qualifications to back up the opinions, on older boats motors and other such items are replaced on condition not age. Electronics change rapidly and while the older stuff will get you there the newer stuff is well worth it. You will know when to upgrade.

I could go on about the schedule you were presented but I'm stated my position based upon 18 years of Swan ownership and cruising for the past six years.

Buy quality regardless of age and you will never regret it. There is much secondary benefit to owning a really great boat. Your plan is solid and I assure you that you will be happy to spend money on a boat you really love.

[PLeffe]

Thank you for asking. And, as crazy as it might sound I still have two Swans. In reference to the 371 you are looking at. They are a good solid boat. The decks are what they are. By that I mean the decision to remove or replace is purely an aesthetic one. Since they will not leak you are not forced to rework them. The calking is important. If the calking gets old it allows water to get under the wood deck planks and buckles them. They will lay back down with some summer sun on them. It’s not a really bad project to fix areas of calking. The entire deck is another issue. Look at the boat and decide what you can live with.

On a different note. The 371 is a bit small inside. If you can find a 391 within your budget you will be much happier. The layout is similar but the internal volume is much more generous. They cost more because they are worth more.

Final note. These boats are aft cockpit with a bridge deck. It’s a Ron Holland offshore racing design. Great sailing boat but that bridge deck is for the young at heart. Crawling across it offshore is something that will keep you alert.

Good luck with your search. The cost of replacing the decks is to high in relation to the value of the boat. Either live with what you have or remove the decks and go with a nice fiberglass deck.

Regards,
Peter

[watchskiing]

Thank you for valuable input!

I just sold my 30 foot C&C that I got to try out the sailing life, needless to say I was hooked. Can agree with most above that it is a black hole for cash at least, so thought I should start with a smaller less expensive boat in order to build knowledge. Ended up feeling like spending money on something I knew was a mid station, hence I sold it and will look for something that is more long term and right for me and my family.

Next one will be a 35+ one based on having a family of four and will be a keeper for 10-15 years plus at least. Got a thing for the Swans and HRs as solid sea sailors based on my uncles advice from
Circumnavigating in a HR 42E Ketch, and they are high in the wish list.

Plan to sail coastline Norway/Sweden and crossing the North Sea in a few years time, hence I prefer an older solid seafarer to a newer large production boat for the more average brands... But maybe this is just something in my head.

The thread above is quite valuable for me. But I will not have much use for a yacht the coming 1,5 years due to young kids and a wife that prefers the land until nr 2 is at least 1,5 years old. So I have good time to find “the one”.

Originally Posted by PLeffe

Thank you for asking. And, as crazy as it might sound I still have two Swans. In reference to the 371 you are looking at. They are a good solid boat. The decks are what they are. By that I mean the decision to remove or replace is purely an aesthetic one. Since they will not leak you are not forced to rework them. The calking is important. If the calking gets old it allows water to get under the wood deck planks and buckles them. They will lay back down with some summer sun on them. It’s not a really bad project to fix areas of calking. The entire deck is another issue. Look at the boat and decide what you can live with.

On a different note. The 371 is a bit small inside. If you can find a 391 within your budget you will be much happier. The layout is similar but the internal volume is much more generous. They cost more because they are worth more.

Final note. These boats are aft cockpit with a bridge deck. It’s a Ron Holland offshore racing design. Great sailing boat but that bridge deck is for the young at heart. Crawling across it offshore is something that will keep you alert.

Good luck with your search. The cost of replacing the decks is to high in relation to the value of the boat. Either live with what you have or remove the decks and go with a nice fiberglass deck.

Regards,
Peter

[Jacky Ickx]

Originally Posted by PLeffe

I almost never post but this question got to me. I own not one but two Swans. Both older. My 1980 I have owned for 18 years. It's in So. Calif. My second Swan is a 1977 which is in Panama ready to cross the Pacific this coming March. I love both of them. Best move I ever made.

Both have screw down teak decks. No leaks ever. The decks have a fiberglass top and bottom layer with closed cell non-porous foam in-between. You can drill holes in the top all day long and water can't go through and they can't/don't get soft. I can not speak to HR decks but Swan decks are built to not leak!

My cruising boat was really down on its luck when I bought it. The price was very low but I spent three times its cost fixing it and still have more to go. If I were to do it again I would buy one that was cared for and loved. Still I love the boat I have and have put three cruising seasons in on it. I have always felt safe and secure on it.

IMHO and I have the professional qualifications to back up the opinions, on older boats motors and other such items are replaced on condition not age. Electronics change rapidly and while the older stuff will get you there the newer stuff is well worth it. You will know when to upgrade.

I could go on about the schedule you were presented but I'm stated my position based upon 18 years of Swan ownership and cruising for the past six years.

Buy quality regardless of age and you will never regret it. There is much secondary benefit to owning a really great boat. Your plan is solid and I assure you that you will be happy to spend money on a boat you really love.

Dear PLeffe

I am a prospective purchaser of a Nautor's Swan sailing yacht and have some related questions that you may be able to answer.

The first series I am considering is the classic Swan 65 that were produced in the years 1973-1989 (currently some 38 boats still exists). Do you know anything about them? What I understand from having researched quite a bit about them (and sailed them a few times) is that the quality is absolutely exceptional and that a well-maintained boat should be in the value range of some 500-600 thousand EURO (600-750 tUSD). Major replacements over the years are typically as follows:

1) Standing rigging: every 10 year (insurance policy). Could potentially last up to 20 years but with the large loads it's not a recommended replacement interval

2) Teak deck: every 10-15 years. If carefully cared for, in the right climate and not overly exposed maybe 15-20 years?

3) Hull: 3-5 bottom repaint and anodes, 5-10 year side gelcoat paint. Major overhaul every 10-15 years?

4) Sails: approx 5 years but may last up 10-15 years if sparingly used in the right climate?

5) Engine: could last up to 30 years if carefully maintained and serviced (heat exchanger, cam chains replaced 5-10 years)

6) Toilettes/plumbing/pumps/heating: max 10-15 years

7) Electronics: 5-10 years with regular upgrades

8) Running rigging: 3-5 years

9) Openings, hatches, ventils etc: 10-15 years if carefully serviced

10) Other: 10-15 years

For a Swan 65 (30-45 years old) I estimate the annual depreciation/maintenance costs to be around 15.000 EUROS (18.000 USD) or some 2.5-3.0% of the purchase price. This to maintain the value of the boat. Clearly some costs will come as a lump sum while others will come each year.

The other series I am eyeing is the Swan 77 (1992-2004) that are considerably more expensive in purchasing and owning, however maintenance costs should still be in the same percentage range of 2.5-3.0% per year?

PLeffe does this more or less correspond with your experience?