Programmers afloat a business idea

[hellosailor]

A documented vessel is not sovereign property. Nor is it US soil.

You'd be working "in" whatever nation exerted a claim of territorial waters around you.

And of course, the US would still tax that income, irregardless of where you made it.

[john61ct]

If you're a US citizen

[hellosailor]

John-
You haven't heard the news?
Tomorrow night, Donald is going to announce that "everyone" is now granted US citizenship. He's making it universal and mandatory. So the DACA problem goes away, the need for border walls goes away, and the federal deficit and spending limits all go away, as he'll be rolling in tax revenues from all over the world. All those problems solved in one stroke! And with all the North Koreans becoming Americans, heck, they can't bomb their own country, so now Hawaii is safe too!
Who knew, the man really is a genius.

[john61ct]

Would also justify completely removing ACA and the rest of the social safety net, you might be onto something there.

[surb]

Originally Posted by BlueChicago

I can't judge whether this is a good business idea or not. However, if your goal is to find projects for which you are qualified and allow you to work remotely from your boat, I think that there are are number of job sites out there that post contracts. Plus, there are numerous vendors out there that make their living bringing the right talent onto projects.

I also agree that face time with the client is important. However, sometimes the occasional visit to the client site is all that is needed.

Good luck on your quest.

-BC

The problem with these sites is you get outbid by guys and gals from countries that work for pennies compared to the rates we get here. I work for a big bank and the hell I deal with on a daily basis with offshore teams is mind blowing. I use to be a grunt developer and now I spend most of my time managing offshore teams who are unable to think outside the box.

The remote opportunities are there but hard to find. Until I come up with a service that generates revenue daily I am stuck working for the big guys for now. I wish you luck and wish I could work remotely from my boat.

[BlueChicago]

Originally Posted by surb

The problem with these sites is you get outbid by guys and gals from countries that work for pennies compared to the rates we get here. I work for a big bank and the hell I deal with on a daily basis with offshore teams is mind blowing. I use to be a grunt developer and now I spend most of my time managing offshore teams who are unable to think outside the box.

The remote opportunities are there but hard to find. Until I come up with a service that generates revenue daily I am stuck working for the big guys for now. I wish you luck and wish I could work remotely from my boat.

I have have bumped up against offshore numerous times (usually, I am competing with consultants out of India). I have also had vendors offer rates that were lower than I was willing to accept. I usually decline (always respectfully).

Sometimes the vendor surprises me, comes back, and meets my terms. Most of the time they don't (which is okay). That said, I have been on enough projects to see what happens after a vendor and/or the client have contracted with consultants with too much emphasis on a low rate.

That said, I also know that my time is worth something to me, and I have yet to be paid for the time it takes to travel to and from the client site each week (being productive en route is a challenge). That, plus I also consider the rest of the time spent away from home and all that entails. When you add it up, travel alone costs me between 8 - 14 hours per week (for domestic projects), so I am willing to take a hit on my rate if the work is remote.

Fortunately, I have been working remote for a couple years now, and my stress levels have dropped significantly. There is something to be said about sleeping in your own bed and being able to cook your own food!

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by john61ct

If you're a US citizen

As I understand it - if you make a wage or salary directly from a US-based company, even if you're not a US citizen... you could be in the IRS's crosshairs. If they find out.
(working for a foreign subsidiary doesn't count)

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by travellerw

I too have made some money while living aboard through programming. However, it was only through good networking contacts I had before I left. It was also somewhat proprietary code that required a good knowledge of the client infrastructure.

I have also thought of doing general programing as a business. Unfortunately, I then found the websites offering high quality Chinese programmers for SOOOOO CHEAP. The idea died there.

However.. I have since found a small niche that earns me some beer money remotely. I use headhunters back home to find me piecemeal work in this niche!

No need to start a company to execute on the OPs idea, unless you just want to share some resources etc. The headhunters already have the contacts, use them for that.

Remote development, while maybe less in favor at the moment, is a well trodden path.

A good client interface is very important, but everyone on the team doesnt need to be sitting there. Also sometimes its best to keep some space between clients and developers so clients dont try make an end run around change control and sneak little features in with the developers.

Ive done remote development and managed projects using remote develpment resources (having been one of those resources helps). Its easy to do remote development wrong, but not hard to do it right...especially on small to medium sized projects.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

Caribbean gov't run sites are full of job ads for IT work. IMO it would make sense to create an agency which would connect those positions with the programmers, QAs, etc. Sort of like crew staffing agencies in major ports. Would have to have some sort of legal staff though to navigate all the rules and regs re: employment, work visas, etc. This may be the prohibitive cost factor unless that too is some cruiser-attorney's part time work. [emoji3]

And while on the subject. Why limit such agency to IT? There are tons of other specialties which are constantly in demand in less developed areas - medicine, law, tech repairs, etc. This can be "uber" of each such specialty. Just need to work out legal and cultural kinks.

Already been done in a big way, Google "staff leasing".

[weavis]

You can have the 'business' in a bricks and mortar location.
YOu would be staff and paid accordingly where ever you are.

I recently needed a makeover on one of my programs and had to outsource. Quotes from America and G.B. were in the 10K region.

An Indian programmer did it for £1100 and in 2 weeks. Doesnt fall over and good coding...

Lots of competition out there.

[jma]

Howdy,

I've been doing some research along the same lines recently. When I saw this post I decided to join. Thanks!

My thoughts were towards something like a garage based business. There are a few countries out there that have no income tax at all. So you could have a shared programmers house, and a yacht/s owned by the company that is anywhere in the world at any given time. Essentially a company where everybody is time sharing a couple of boats to keep the overall costs down. Maybe ship the boats ahead to the best cruising spots as part of company perks. As it scales up, part of the company is basically a bare boat operation, where all employees are discount customers, and get extra long vacations as employment perks.

There have been stranger business models.

Message me privately if there is anything moving forward. I'd be interested in being a part of whatever it is.

Thanks in advance!
jma

[hellosailor]

jma-
" There are a few countries out there that have no income tax at all."
Yes, but if you are a US citizen, you'll still have to pay federal income tax no matter where you earn your money. Might not be fair, but it isn't avoidable unless you also resign your citizenship--and that's not so easy either. Also, irreversible.

"So you could have a shared programmers house,"
That's called a temp agency, even if your model is co-op ownership rather than management taking a straight cut. They're out there.

"and a yacht/s owned by the company"
And now you've got to run a yacht management agency, with all the issues of "that's overbooked, he didn't leave on time" and "Well, I didn't ground the boat and tear the genoa, but someone certainly did." Multiplied by every boat and every member. And conform to multiple laws in multiple venues. Probably including business operating laws in each of them.

" Maybe ship the boats ahead"
Shipping boats, either by hiring a professional crew or booking them as cargo, is NOT CHEAP. And someone has to be there each time, to sign off and accept the condition as un/damaged every time the boats un/load.

Not to dampen your enthusiasm, but there used to be freelance programmers in the 80's and 90's. Then abuses of the employee/contractor labor laws became rampant, and by 2000 companies didn't want to touch freelancers, they wanted strictly temps who were formally employed by a temp agency, or else long term contracts often one year at a time.

This is not new. If you think that creating and operating two or three international companies or co-ops is going to be simpler than just signing up with an agency...do the numbers. Then look online and see the issues folks have with internet or mail connectivity off the grid. Yes, they can get it--but with serious limits.

Running a business well is not easy. Another reason why many talented folks are much happier working for an agency and letting the agency handle all the paperwork and marketing.

[Fence Man]

From a customer's point of view.......We use a local guy on projects where face to face interaction is necessary, and we have Ajay in India that takes care of everything else. Local guy is $60/hour, and Ajay is $5/hour, although we pay him double so we don't lose him. They both do great work. I think that the need for remote programers will be ever increasing as our world changes and continues to shrink. As for the tax implications, I would sure think that a land based LLC, for US citizens, would be the ticket. The LLC collects the $, and you take enough of a paycheck to keep it legit while you use the company debit card for your expenses. In theory, if there wasn't any other income, it seems easy enough to keep the revenue low enough to qualify for earned income tax credits, and really extend the cruising! I don't condone this behavior, but the law is the law.....right?
In short, I wouldn't hesitate to hire a cruiser to help on projects remotely, especially if they came recommended.

[sailing.pirate]

Originally Posted by Fence Man

From a customer's point of view.......We use a local guy on projects where face to face interaction is necessary, and we have Ajay in India that takes care of everything else. Local guy is $60/hour, and Ajay is $5/hour, although we pay him double so we don't lose him. They both do great work. I think that the need for remote programers will be ever increasing as our world changes and continues to shrink. As for the tax implications, I would sure think that a land based LLC, for US citizens, would be the ticket. The LLC collects the $, and you take enough of a paycheck to keep it legit while you use the company debit card for your expenses. In theory, if there wasn't any other income, it seems easy enough to keep the revenue low enough to qualify for earned income tax credits, and really extend the cruising! I don't condone this behavior, but the law is the law.....right?
In short, I wouldn't hesitate to hire a cruiser to help on projects remotely, especially if they came recommended.

This is exactly the business plan I've been working up for myself. I've been developing for years and can no longer stand being in the office. The past few years I've taken jobs in other land not as a developer just for the break. Currently I'm working for a great company that allows me to work remotely but still has a bit of scheduling to eat. And I'm not on the water yet. But I have a goal and I'm working on the plan. So I can say, I'd definitely look for afloat developer work.

[windycityxx]

What type of headhunters are they? What are your payment terms with them?

Originally Posted by travellerw

I too have made some money while living aboard through programming. However, it was only through good networking contacts I had before I left. It was also somewhat proprietary code that required a good knowledge of the client infrastructure.

I have also thought of doing general programing as a business. Unfortunately, I then found the websites offering high quality Chinese programmers for SOOOOO CHEAP. The idea died there.

However.. I have since found a small niche that earns me some beer money remotely. I use headhunters back home to find me piecemeal work in this niche!