Purchased yacht, but can't document. Broker unresponsive. Any advice?

[Suijin]

The first thing I would do is call the CG documentation center and talk to someone directly on the phone. While they can be difficult to reach once you do they can be very helpful and accommodating. I'm sure they see this situation with some frequency. At the very least you'll get a clearer picture of what your options are.

You'll probably need to work with a lawyer. If the broker is a YBAA member it probably would not hurt to give them a call as well.

[Liam Wald]

I would also contact the state board for broker licensing.
The broker has a clear responsibility to facilitate the transfer of title.
A failure to do this could put his license to do business in jeopardy.

[Dulcesuenos]

Originally Posted by Cadence

I wish he would post both the Broker's name and boat yard, Nothing derogatory has to be said.

Pretty sure there is only one broker/ sales office at Indiantown marina.

[14murs14]

Originally Posted by sainted

Ann, I don't know what you have against documentation services, but they have been helpful to me in the past. Because the CG is sooo backed up on documentation processing, they can be a real pain to deal with. I've used ASAP Marine Documentation (ASAP Marine Documentation and Registration, Inc.) in FL a couple of times, and they did good work. Yes, because my vessel is owned by a trust, its a bit more complicated then a straight ownership transfer, but then so is this guys problem.

Scott

+1 on ASAP and I'm a recently retired Coast Guard officer! If you've got plenty of time and it's a straightforward transaction then it's not a big deal at all to do it yourself. If it's at all complicated (mine was a formerly French flagged boat, the OP is in an even trickier situation), then it's well worth their reasonable fee to have access to their knowledge and experience. For example, at one point we were having a hard time getting the owner to get the bill of sale notarized with the appropriate overseas method (appostille?) and I was in a time crunch. ASAP suggested titling the boat in DE, which doesn't require the appostille, then registering with the CG, which will accept the DE title. You have to be a professional in that business to know those kind of details, again it's well worth their fee to access this expertise.

[exMaggieDrum]

Is it common for brokers to own boats they sell? I have limited experience in this area but all boats I have ever checked out were not owned by the broker. I can see how it could be possible but it seems a little bit shaky. I'm not sure why a broker would ever buy a boat just to sell it, unless they bought it at auction or from an owner who sold it far below market and they wanted to make a cheap buck.

[cal40john]

Originally Posted by nematon785

This is sadly a perfect example to warn others here on the forum to be very careful about clear ownership transfer before handing money over.

Now I have a question: Does title insurance exist for boats? now I feel dumb, but I really would like to know. Not sure if a hijack of the thread. apology in advance. Some purchases far exceed real estate value, and it would seem quite a good policy, and required by the bank if a loan exists. I really know very little, and it shows, but a chance to learn exists here.

Also I would like to say I feel for the original poster, and I am sorry for what you are going through. maybe it is a simple matter of the broker calling previous owner for bill of sale blah blah blah, even then hassle...

When I bought my boat I used a title company. They did a title search and transferred the documentation and anything else needed.

Just now researching again, there isn't quite the same thing as title insurance for real estate. (I'd have to find the papers, but I thought the company I used had a guarantee of payment like a real estate title insurance company.)

Shedding some light on the maritime title search process - Boating World

[sailpower]

Originally Posted by Suijin

If the broker is a YBAA member it probably would not hurt to give them a call as well.

It's possible that a FL broker is a member of YBAA but probably more likely a member of IYBA (formerly FYBA).

https://iyba.yachts/

[sailpower]

Originally Posted by Liam Wald

I would also contact the state board for broker licensing.

Services that require a license - Yacht and Ship Brokers and Salespersons

[nematon785]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

I can buy a $25 number punch set at Horror Fright, stop at the craft store for a box of plaster or hardening clay, and voila, yessir, I can make a pencil rubbing of any HIN you want. Any special color paper you want that on? #2 lead pencil OK, or something special in a color maybe? What is the saying, locks are only there to keep out honest men?

This quote and the comment about un-notarized bills of sale magically being discovered is the best advice yet given if the OP just wants to somehow slither under radar get a paper registration in hand legally or not and has paid money for an interest in an unknown untitled boat, and the contract was very careful to explain no guarantees of any kind, no actual ownership transfer you takes your chances, and a huge discount was involved for what appears to be an abandoned or derelict boat and is willing to risk breaking the law and dealing with possible later legitimate claims against his title to the vessel and or prosecution which may or may not be likely or severe...May just work out fine and dandy.

Another piece of advice I have heard is if the person you are dealing with creates too much trouble (example at the DMV wont title your item) leave, and come back when someone else is working (do not let them write on your documentation with pen! and be careful to be noncommital until you see things are going "as usual"). Get somebody on a bad day or a bad mood, they will make your life hell...

You can get around a lot of bureaucracy by picking your battles and adversaries, another state may be much easier to deal with. offshore may be much easier to deal with.

If you actually attempted to legitimately buy a boat from another person, and title turns up clouded, and you want clear legit ownership, that is different, and the situation I am under the impression you are in.

However, now I wonder aloud:

WHAT DID YOU ACTUALLY EXPECT WHEN YOU BOUGHT? did the broker explain this boat was a repo from unpaid marina fees, or did he ----SELL YOU THE BOAT WITH HIS SIGNATURE AS THE OWNER---?

If I buy a newer car at way below book from a tow yard with a Lien or multiple LIENS clouding title and all they sell me is their interest or claim against ownership, and that is made clear to me at the transaction I cannot blame the tow yard if establishing my right to ownership is challenging or impossible.

There once was a guy who posted a thread asking proper method for demanding the captain of a vessel show himself and declare command of a vessel, and as the thread developed it became clear he wanted to seize and salvage vessels that were unmanned, moored or not. It did not take long to learn for everyone involved this technique was not profitable, and would never work, because salvage is one of the hardest ways on earth to make a living, and rendering assistance/salvage is chiefly about saving lives first and property second!

Don't be the guy skulking around looking for a way to bottom feed.

I will add that I have done some questionable things to get things done in the face of bureaucracy, so no angel here. no judgement just an interest in the thread and the subject matter.

[exMaggieDrum]

I wish the OP good luck and all speed in getting his documentation/registration cleared up. I have close friends who are in Florida right now trying to buy a boat which they thought they had bought.

The went down 4 weeks ago to seatrial, survey, and buy their next boat. They are from the PNW so a long flight and they have been staying in a hotel since then. They were planning on living on the boat right away. They have a signed contract but were going to use their credit union for a loan for part of the funds with the boat as collateral. The credit union turned up a problem with the title as a previous "mortgage" loan on the boat was supposedly paid but the lien on the boat was never taken off. The credit union will not give the loan with a clouded title. The broker hasn't been much help. The credit union doesn't look at this as their problem and the previous owner and his documents are long gone. The company which has the lien on the boat somehow can't find the paper trail on the satisfaction of the mortgage. They don't look at this as a priority and don't want to let a lien go by just in case they actually may want to take the boat. No end in sight right now.

[aaronroesner]

Originally Posted by nematon785

This quote and the comment about un-notarized bills of sale magically being discovered is the best advice yet given if the OP just wants to somehow slither under radar get a paper registration in hand legally or not and has paid money for an interest in an unknown untitled boat, and the contract was very careful to explain no guarantees of any kind, no actual ownership transfer you takes your chances, and a huge discount was involved for what appears to be an abandoned or derelict boat and is willing to risk breaking the law and dealing with possible later legitimate claims against his title to the vessel and or prosecution which may or may not be likely or severe...May just work out fine and dandy.

Another piece of advice I have heard is if the person you are dealing with creates too much trouble (example at the DMV wont title your item) leave, and come back when someone else is working (do not let them write on your documentation with pen! and be careful to be noncommital until you see things are going "as usual"). Get somebody on a bad day or a bad mood, they will make your life hell...

You can get around a lot of bureaucracy by picking your battles and adversaries, another state may be much easier to deal with. offshore may be much easier to deal with.

If you actually attempted to legitimately buy a boat from another person, and title turns up clouded, and you want clear legit ownership, that is different, and the situation I am under the impression you are in.

However, now I wonder aloud:

WHAT DID YOU ACTUALLY EXPECT WHEN YOU BOUGHT? did the broker explain this boat was a repo from unpaid marina fees, or did he ----SELL YOU THE BOAT WITH HIS SIGNATURE AS THE OWNER---?

If I buy a newer car at way below book from a tow yard with a Lien or multiple LIENS clouding title and all they sell me is their interest or claim against ownership, and that is made clear to me at the transaction I cannot blame the tow yard if establishing my right to ownership is challenging or impossible.

There once was a guy who posted a thread asking proper method for demanding the captain of a vessel show himself and declare command of a vessel, and as the thread developed it became clear he wanted to seize and salvage vessels that were unmanned, moored or not. It did not take long to learn for everyone involved this technique was not profitable, and would never work, because salvage is one of the hardest ways on earth to make a living, and rendering assistance/salvage is chiefly about saving lives first and property second!

Don't be the guy skulking around looking for a way to bottom feed.

I will add that I have done some questionable things to get things done in the face of bureaucracy, so no angel here. no judgement just an interest in the thread and the subject matter.

It is not my intention at all to falsify documents in order obtain title for the boat. My purchase agreement states that I will receive clear and marketable title to the boat. I paid a very fair price for this boat, compared to others on the market at the time. Even if I could obtain a title by some unsavory means, this would not give me a clear title as the chain of ownership has been established. There may be unknown leans, foreign registration, salvage, etc. that may jeopardize not only my right of ownership but that of future owners as well. As many others have stated on here, as well as the USCG NVDC, there is nothing demonstrating that the individual who sold me the boat had the right to do so. Possession is not the same as ownership. I would never buy a home just because somebody threw me the keys and a bill of sale. It's the same with this boat. What makes me even more suspect is that the selling broker refuses to provide me with the previous owners contact information so I can obtain the needed information directly from him. Something stinks about this whole deal, and without clear title I don't know if I want to be a party to it.

[aaronroesner]

UPDATE:

I spoke with an attorney in Stuart and they were very clear that I did not own the boat and, without establishing chain of title, the PO had no right to sell it to me. When I mentioned that the broker somehow purchased the boat from the PO and then sold it to me (title jumping) she said "Welcome to Florida!". She agrees that something is probably up, especially since the documentation expired in 1998 and the broker and PO are refusing to provide any information.

We are going to start with a harshly worded letter to the broker. If still uncooperative she is going to go to the Florida brokers licensing board. She is demanding free and clear title in 15 days, or a complete refund of all monies including my expenses.

[belizesailor]

Good for you for following up. Hold his feet to the fire.

Often a stern letter from an attorney is all it takes.

[nematon785]

Stupid question, but who is the entity that furnishes title in your purchase agreement? Is the Broker you agreed with the "owner? what does the purchase agreement look like? who promises what to you for your "consideration" (Money)

I am just curious. I have never bought a boat, (not counting dinghies non titled) But I am dangerously close to buying a big one...I would like to learn from your situation. I am really curious what sort of boilerplaet the purchase agreement is written on.

I have seen several state "standard real estate purchase agreements" and Florida has the most boats of anywhere, so I am wondering if there is some standard purchase agreement that brokers use there, and if there is a standard purchase agreement boilerplate used in most coastal states. Several items come up under search, but I wonder if there is a classic standard VESSEL BUY SELL AGREEMENT

My previous post was toned a bit accusatory I am sorry if I came across that way, just want to deter people looking to pull shenanigans. I have dealt with troubled title for vehicles (ugh), and I am looking at title clouds towards water rights in Colorado related to a property I own(ugh) So I am prone to getting all worked up about this stuff.

Still hoping things just clear up with a good bill of sale from the previous owner...

Please post results to your situation even if you choose not to respond to me thanks!

[aaronroesner]

Originally Posted by nematon785

Stupid question, but who is the entity that furnishes title in your purchase agreement? Is the Broker you agreed with the "owner? what does the purchase agreement look like? who promises what to you for your "consideration" (Money)

I am just curious. I have never bought a boat, (not counting dinghies non titled) But I am dangerously close to buying a big one...I would like to learn from your situation. I am really curious what sort of boilerplaet the purchase agreement is written on.

I have seen several state "standard real estate purchase agreements" and Florida has the most boats of anywhere, so I am wondering if there is some standard purchase agreement that brokers use there, and if there is a standard purchase agreement boilerplate used in most coastal states. Several items come up under search, but I wonder if there is a classic standard VESSEL BUY SELL AGREEMENT

My previous post was toned a bit accusatory I am sorry if I came across that way, just want to deter people looking to pull shenanigans. I have dealt with troubled title for vehicles (ugh), and I am looking at title clouds towards water rights in Colorado related to a property I own(ugh) So I am prone to getting all worked up about this stuff.

Still hoping things just clear up with a good bill of sale from the previous owner...

Please post results to your situation even if you choose not to respond to me thanks!

From what I could see, there is no standard Purchase Agreement for boats like there is for real estate. My purchase agreement states that, at closing, seller will deliver "clear and marketable title" and agrees to "execute any document necessary to transfer ownership interest to buyer". The broker stated that he did a title search, at my request, and everything came back clear. Of course the title search would come back clear as the documentation expired back in 1998, and without USCG documentation or state titling you can not place a lien on a boat.

In my case I'm assuming that the seller on paper had the boat listed for quiet some time and eventually the listing broker purchased the boat from the seller, without transferring title or paying the taxes, etc. The broker then turns around and sells the boat to me, under the original seller's name. Now that there are issues with transferring ownership the broker needs to go back to the original seller to obtain the proper documents. Problem is that original seller is going to say "hey, I sold you that boat 2 years ago, why didn't you take it out of my name/why are you bringing this up now?". The broker, being licensed by the State of Florida, can get in deep sh*** for title jumping, not paying the sales tax on a purchase, and falsely notarizing a bill of sale. So this ties the brokers hands; he can't go back to the seller for the doc's he needs, and he can't provide them to me so I can get clear title. Either way, he's going to get busted. So his only option is to ignore everyone and hope this goes away.

So my advice is this: If the boat is state titled, make sure you receive a clear title at closing (like a car). If the boat is documented, check the USCG NVDC to make sure the boat is currently documented in the sellers name, and that you receive a USCG bill of sale at closing. Better yet would be to have all funds held in escrow until the title/documentation has been accepted and fully transferred.

If you are looking for a boiler plate purchase agreement I believe Edwards Yacht Sales has one on there website.

Hope this helps.