Spend before you See...Time for a change?

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by Fransw

No

The sales rep should have pick the phone up and phone the potential client! Not the other way around..
Tell this guy to bugger of!

Yup. If you rely on weeding out serious buyers by how they choose to communicate, you're going to be soon facing extinction since people that primarily use a telephone are (literally) a dying breed.

Business sales to other businesses is a different type of selling. A buyer purchasing something like a car, house or boat has done a transaction like this maybe but a few times in their life total. Unless a type A personality, most feel that they are walking into the lion's den in a position of weakness vs the salesperson- who is always thought of as dishonest- that does these transactions daily.

One way that buyers alleviate this stress is to make initial contact in the least confrontational way possible. Now add in younger buyers that have spent most of their professional years communicating in emails, and you can see why ignoring the majority of the population is a huge mistake.

Matt - ex-Sales Manager for a large auto dealer group that spent most of his time training old school salespeople into understand the world today


But I don't think that relates to the OP's issue. I think the problem is asking for the buyer to take a test sail... that is typically not done until money has been hammered out and a deposit made.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

Yup. If you rely on weeding out serious buyers by how they choose to communicate, you're going to be soon facing extinction since people that primarily use a telephone are (literally) a dying breed.

But I don't think that relates to the OP's issue. I think the problem is asking for the buyer to take a test sail... that is typically not done until money has been hammered out and a deposit made.

Agreed and agreed. Buyer wasn't weeded-out because he was an email tire (tyre?) kicker, he was weeded-out because he wanted the broker, owner, and presumably the insurance company to provide a test sail without benefit of an earnest money deposit.

Why not say "I'm traveling a great distance at great expense with a limited time there. Assuming I place an offer by the end of Day 2, would the owner be available to consider the offer ASAP and the boat be available for sea trial on Day 3?" I know a few will say "Jeesh, might as well just open your checkbook to be fleeced by a crooked broker." Fair comment, but I have done pretty well with a friendly, respectful approach. When we bought our current boat 20-years ago, first words I uttered when we went aboard - probably within earshot of the broker - were "This boat is sold. Only question is the selling price." We loved the boat, and I can't even remember exactly what we paid for it, probably a few bucks more than we needed. That's not the part I remember when I step aboard.

[Ibetitsthisway]

I agree that splitting cost or any financial effort from the customers side is absolutely ok in my eyes. I dont see the problem in paying 500 bucks or so for testsailing a 50ft boat for a half day / day. in case of contract these 500 can be deducted.


I run a production business and customers very often ask for quality production samples, as if it would cost nothing. often we charge up to 500€ for samples... it is deducted from the invoice in case of order.

[Wotname]

You want to go sailing for free for an hour or two on a very expensive boat and you are only offering your unconfirmed story about your life situation as evidence of your serious intention to buy - really! Sorry to be blunt but there are a thousands of scammers sending emails every day. Of course you might not be one of them!

Any decent broker will expect to some money on the table before giving you a half a day out on the water - the money is the only suitable evidence of your serious intention to buy.

However, there is a simple solution - ask the broker (email or phone) for an appointment to see the boat and then turn up and have a look at it. The back story is of no importance to the broker or vendor. After a dockside viewing, you can take it further or not as you see fit. You might even find the broker is a nice guy once you meet him!

[Paul L]

It is not customary or practical to offer test sails to potential purchasers when selling a boat by owner or through a broker. It's kinda like wanting to live in a house that is for sale for a few days before you decide to make an offer.
If the OP wants to sail on this specific boat then they need to put a purchase contract on it that requires a seatrial. If they don't like how the boat sails then they can cancel the contract based on nonapproval of tbe seatrial.
If what they really want to do is see if they like this type of boat, then they need to find one to charter. This thread is one time where the broker bashing is just not supported.

[Shrew]

You're asking for a seatrial. That will costs you Earnest Money with most decent, reputable brokers. I suspect this is where you're misunderstanding is occurring. If you asked to simply view the boat, I doubt this would be a requirement.

1) View Boat
2) Make offer
3) Agree on Price
4) Sign P&S with Deposit
5) Survey
6) Seatrial
7) renegotiate based on survey and seatrial (if necessary)
8) Purchase vessel

You're trying to combine step 1 with step #6 and you're confused why the broker is asking for step #4.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by Shrew

1) View Boat
2) Make offer
3) Agree on Price
4) Sign P&S with Deposit
5) Survey
6) Seatrial
7) renegotiate based on survey and seatrial (if necessary)
8) Purchase vessel

This is a really good summary. There are many things you can do to grease the skids to maximize your time yet protect yourself.

1. Ask for email of purchase agreement to review ahead of time (the 10-hour flight). You sound like a pretty bright person who has experience with similarly valued property transactions, so would be helpful even without your attorney's immediate input.

2. Ask for Broker's funding accounts for escrow - is it a legitimate escrow account with defined instructions in the purchase agreement? is it located in Oz? US? UK? Other? Many international brokers setup US bank accounts as it is the world's reserve currency, and mitigates risk of currency fluctuation.

3. Ask broker to ensure schedule of activities while you are there can be met. Seller is available to review your offer and sign-off; sea trial can be scheduled in short notice (or upon your return with your wife, etc.).

Bottom line, if you're offended by this process, you will either need to widen your net beyond a single boat located halfway around the globe, or shift to land-based cruising and buy an RV/Caravan as pre-purchase test-drives are more customary. I have to say, I get mixed messages in the OP posts - initial one says test-sail is not a deal breaker, but later posts suggest it is. Wonder if the broker is similarly confused, especially given the reference to multiple emails to clarify?

Regardless - don't give up. End goal is worth it.

Peter

[boatpoker]

OP's statement ....

"I would like to know whether the seller is willing to show me around the boat and show me how it sails."

I don't see that as requesting/demanding a sea trial.

I think many posters are making too much out of this statement. All the broker had to say was..... "Sorry we can only offer that after a deposit has been made but c'mon down and see the boat, we'll take it from there".

[guyrj33]

ok, so when I bought our boat the process went like this.
Boat was for sale, broker took us out for a sail, the other couple we were looking with decided to buy a different boat on their own.
A couple of years later the boat was back on the market, again the broker took us out for a sail on speculation only. We bought the boat and still have her 30 years later. I was given good advice by the broker and bought a good boat the first time. :>)

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by StuM

Someone has got their wires crossed.

I've dealt with Kelvin (actually bought my current boat through him), he showed us several cats and was very helpful, including driving us from Coomera to Raby Bay to view one.

The only time a deposit came into the picture was once we had found the right boat and we put in an offer subject to survey and sea trial.

Are you by any chance asking him to take it off the market until you have seen it?

Stu, I had the same question. Is it contingent on the boat being taken off the market until he can get there? If so a reasonable deposit seems reasonable. Pun intended. I am not sure his expense to get there plays into it.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by WTRacer

I'll give my perspective as someone who isn't a broker but was in a public facing advisory/sales type environment.


Personally I think most of your difficulty is self inflicted, please don't take that too harshly, I hope what follows may help. Of course it may also be that the guy concerned is less than helpful, but you already have a reply to suggest that is not that case.


I see brokers come in for a heap of criticism, often justifiably, but this nothing really to do with boat brokers, it's about people.


Ruso has some points about negotiating positions that are worth noting, but your issue comes earlier in the process.


Here's my take:


You are very interested in buying a £500k+ object and you send an email....why? Though there are buying signals throughout your contact method I would strongly suspect that the guy involved has seen hundreds of these before and they mostly amount to nothing. In fact my first read through of your contact made me feel like uh oh, this guy could be trouble-this despite your email was perfectly reasonable. The simple fact is that emailers are usually both a waste of time and/or trouble. I've seen this so many times it just gets to the point where the overall position is that even if 1 of 100 (and lets say you are the 1) is a positive outcome, it's barely worth the hassle.


There is a minimal time difference iirc, pick up the phone! talk to the guy!


This is especially important where you want something from him that is non standard; a test sail without commitment to buy. I fully understand your position but it's not how used boat buying is normally done. You may argue to norm is "wrong" however that does not change you currently want something outside of the current norm, and you couldn't be bothered to pick up the phone....I sincerely don't mean that make you feel bad, I'm just giving you some food for thought as to how a person on the other side of the equation might feel.


To further weaken your presentation you sent a total of 7 or 8 emails, this has the potential to mark you as annoying and perhaps trouble.


Email, this forum, text messages, so much of social media.....how often do you see misunderstandings due to contextual issues, misunderstandings are rife even between perfectly reasonable people simply because these mediums whilst very useful are horribly impersonal for the most part.


You should have picked up the phone imo, and the part I find most baffling is why you wouldn't do so when seriously wanting to part with half a million.


To finish off I'll give you a somewhat silly analagy, using a house since you mentioned properties.


Imagine you're an estate agent and you get an email from someone asking "Hi I'm really interested in the house you have for sale on x street, I'm in the area and wondering if I can spend that night there to see if I like it" What might your reaction to that be? Ofc I don't expect a reply to this sillyness. I also fully expect some criticism that this is bad analagy


To finish off and tie back to Ruso's comments, take a pause from your desire and excitement (and frustration) of boat shopping and try to see it from the other persons view point. You are dealing with people, with all their faults and naunces. Make it as easy as possible for the other party by considering what they might want for a smooth and easy transaction, doing so can then bring other rewards. A friendly customer is more likely to achieve a happier outcome for all concerned (perhaps even including a better price or acceptance of non standard requests like a no obligation test sail from an owner) I've no reason to doubt you are a friendly customer, but how would the broker know, all they got was a bunch of anonymous emails asking for unusual stuff within the confines of the time you have and said broker may have had 367 other emails the same week all of which were a bit crappy too.


This rambling nonsense isn't meant to belittle you or defend a broker, it's simply my take on managing your expectations and something to think about when building a short term relationship.



Mini rant over

I totally disagree. The broker has a responsibility to take all inquiries seriously, from what I've read here the potential buyer had presented himself in away that clearly says "I'm interested ".

My experience with yacht brokers and surveyors to date says the industry needs a shake up. Thailand was mentioned earlier . Three years ago I'd just sold my boat and business and was cashed up, I had 250k+ burning a hole in my pocket ear marked for a boat, I physically went to brokers, in both Thailand and Malaysia, not only couldn't they sell me a boat they weren't particularly interested. I flew to Hong Kong to look at a boat. I arrive and the broker says" I should of told you the owner is shipping the yacht back to Canada next Friday therefore the asking price has gone up???????....I was pissed.

Anyway from a Hong kong Mac Donald's I ring a broker in Australia ,I explain the situation , tell him I'm cashed up and are buying a boat, let's not waste each others time. I then made an offer on a boat subject to inspection, he rejected the offer there and then and never presented it to the owner. I flew home and had a look anyway. I liked it but because he pissed me off I now offered 10k less. The boat is now mine and the PO dosent even know he could of had 10k more in his pocket.

My experience has been brokers have come complacent, I understand this cant apply to all brokers but the 7or 8 I dealt with fit the description.

Btw, I come from a sales back ground, I get it, BUT do your job.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Fransw

No

The sales rep should have pick the phone up and phone the potential client! Not the other way around..
Tell this guy to bugger of!

Yes, show some hunger or get out of the business.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

OP's statement ....

"I would like to know whether the seller is willing to show me around the boat and show me how it sails."

I don't see that as requesting/demanding a sea trial.

I think many posters are making too much out of this statement. All the broker had to say was..... "Sorry we can only offer that after a deposit has been made but c'mon down and see the boat, we'll take it from there".

Yes ,easy really.

[old pirate]

Its just as others have said The vendor or his agent will only take the buyer out sailing or "test sail" once the serious intent to buy has been established. The seriousness is demonstrated by an acceptable offer to purchase. Merely travelling to the boat, even from a considerable distance, is not evidence enough !
As also mentioned, wanting to spend a few nights in a house prior to purchase is not the normal way of purchasing real estate without first agreeing to terms such as price.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by guyrj33

ok, so when I bought our boat the process went like this.
Boat was for sale, broker took us out for a sail, the other couple we were looking with decided to buy a different boat on their own.
A couple of years later the boat was back on the market, again the broker took us out for a sail on speculation only. We bought the boat and still have her 30 years later. I was given good advice by the broker and bought a good boat the first time. :>)

Ditto, except for the second bite.