Surveyor was drunk during survey - What do I do?

[DanielI]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

The surveyor is liable for whatever the judge says he is liable for. Very often those disclaimers do not hold up.

I’m not sure if you are being tongue in cheek. Yes, there are renegade judges, but generally there is, if not written law, at least case law with clear precedent for what injuries a party is liable for.

Is the surveyor considered responsible for:

1. Delivering an accurate survey, but no additional harm, i.e., if the survey is no good then a refund is owed,

2. Injury sustained due to the survey, i.e., if something breaks and someone gets hurt, surveyor would need to pay damages,

3. Cost of repairs, i.e., if the surveyor says this or that is in good shape, and it turns out it needed replacement, the surveyor pays,

4. The actual valuation, i.e., if the boat isn’t worth what he said, he makes up the difference.

I would have assumed 1 and maybe 2, but not 3 or 4. There has got to be some legal expectation out there.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by DanielI

I’m not sure if you are being tongue in cheek. Yes, there are renegade judges, but generally there is, if not written law, at least case law with clear precedent for what injuries a party is liable for.

Is the surveyor considered responsible for:

1. Delivering an accurate survey, but no additional harm, i.e., if the survey is no good then a refund is owed,

2. Injury sustained due to the survey, i.e., if something breaks and someone gets hurt, surveyor would need to pay damages,

3. Cost of repairs, i.e., if the surveyor says this or that is in good shape, and it turns out it needed replacement, the surveyor pays,

4. The actual valuation, i.e., if the boat isn’t worth what he said, he makes up the difference.

I would have assumed 1 and maybe 2, but not 3 or 4. There has got to be some legal expectation out there.

No tongue in cheek. My point was that surveyors disclaimers are frequently overridden by the courts.I have been involved in several cases against surveyors where their disclaimers were turfed and yes you are correct if you take the time to find them there are several such cases online showing that. No need for the judge to be a "renegade", simply that his interpretation is the only one that counts ... otherwise we woouldn't need a judge at all. We could just look up the case law and say "I win".

[SeeMonstrEd]

I can relate to your situation. Mine was nearly identical 6 years ago. I purchased a Jeanneau 50 with nearly identical problems except the mast. Rudder bearing mount had rusted away so nothing was holding the top of the rudder when I tried to turn it. Gooseneck was done, all kinds of electrical issues rusted keel bolts. As it was, the boat was a death trap. The main difference I had almost no experience in the marine trades and was depending on my survey to give me an honest appraisal.
He missed all of these things and more. When I found the situation with the rudder (it would not turn at all under sail with wind more than 10kts) I called him. Like yours he quickly offered to refund the cost of the survey. I was facing a $3,000 bill to fix the rudder. I didn't find the rest until later. After a brief time I decided to take the money and deal with the issues of the boat.

We got the repairs done on the the rudder and several other things the yard recommended (seacocks etc) while we were hauled out. They had to cut a 2ft x 2ft section of deck out to get to the rudder to build new rudder bearing mounts. The original was in mild steel. The replacement was all stainless. The place where they cut the deck is now glassed back in but there is an access panel I install to give access to that area for steering maintenance and adjustments.

6 Years later we are still living on the boat. We finally got the keel bolts replaced this year. We bought the boat in Florida. Sailed her to Annapolis MD and then on to St Thomas USVI. Most of the repairs I have done myself as I had time and money. I still think buying her and living on her was the best decision I ever made. Yes it has been hard at times and probably dangerous but I have learned so much and she is truly my boat. I have repaired, replaced, or improved nearly every system and I am a better skipper because of it.

I am not a lawyer nor a marine service professional but I know allot about my boat and can fix most anything that might go wrong with her. This is priceless to me and those who may be aboard with me. Just my experience. Hope this helps. Best of luck to you and yours.

[JArcherM]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Is the guy even a licensed surveyor?

Yup. Very well known in the islands. After looking his name up on CF m not the first. Wish I knew I could have just punched in his name to cd search. Lol. Wow.

[JArcherM]

Originally Posted by SeeMonstrEd

I can relate to your situation. Mine was nearly identical 6 years ago. I purchased a Jeanneau 50 with nearly identical problems except the mast. Rudder bearing mount had rusted away so nothing was holding the top of the rudder when I tried to turn it. Gooseneck was done, all kinds of electrical issues rusted keel bolts. As it was, the boat was a death trap. The main difference I had almost no experience in the marine trades and was depending on my survey to give me an honest appraisal.
He missed all of these things and more. When I found the situation with the rudder (it would not turn at all under sail with wind more than 10kts) I called him. Like yours he quickly offered to refund the cost of the survey. I was facing a $3,000 bill to fix the rudder. I didn't find the rest until later. After a brief time I decided to take the money and deal with the issues of the boat.

We got the repairs done on the the rudder and several other things the yard recommended (seacocks etc) while we were hauled out. They had to cut a 2ft x 2ft section of deck out to get to the rudder to build new rudder bearing mounts. The original was in mild steel. The replacement was all stainless. The place where they cut the deck is now glassed back in but there is an access panel I install to give access to that area for steering maintenance and adjustments.

6 Years later we are still living on the boat. We finally got the keel bolts replaced this year. We bought the boat in Florida. Sailed her to Annapolis MD and then on to St Thomas USVI. Most of the repairs I have done myself as I had time and money. I still think buying her and living on her was the best decision I ever made. Yes it has been hard at times and probably dangerous but I have learned so much and she is truly my boat. I have repaired, replaced, or improved nearly every system and I am a better skipper because of it.

I am not a lawyer nor a marine service professional but I know allot about my boat and can fix most anything that might go wrong with her. This is priceless to me and those who may be aboard with me. Just my experience. Hope this helps. Best of luck to you and yours.

Thank you, very nice... Good to know.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by DanielI

I’m not sure if you are being tongue in cheek. Yes, there are renegade judges, but generally there is, if not written law, at least case law with clear precedent for what injuries a party is liable for.

Is the surveyor considered responsible for:

1. Delivering an accurate survey, but no additional harm, i.e., if the survey is no good then a refund is owed,

2. Injury sustained due to the survey, i.e., if something breaks and someone gets hurt, surveyor would need to pay damages,

3. Cost of repairs, i.e., if the surveyor says this or that is in good shape, and it turns out it needed replacement, the surveyor pays,

4. The actual valuation, i.e., if the boat isn’t worth what he said, he makes up the difference.

I would have assumed 1 and maybe 2, but not 3 or 4. There has got to be some legal expectation out there.

Originally Posted by JArcherM

Yup. Very well known in the islands. After looking his name up on CF m not the first. Wish I knew I could have just punched in his name to cd search. Lol. Wow.

Be aware that there is no such thing as a "licensed surveyor" and there are hordes of surveyors out there with fake credentials.

[JArcherM]

Originally Posted by ixnax

Which is why I don't buy it that the OP contracted for a survey to be done. He paid for a $1000 hand hold, that's it. Just because there are pretender surveyors out there doesn't mean it's all invisible to the person hiring the job done. Boating is just like everything else: you want cheap, you can buy cheap.
My experience is that there are very qualified and competent people out there. The last work I had done was by a trained and credentialed Marine Architect and Yacht Designer who totally knows his business. People like that don't get out of bed for $1000. But what you get is real expertise that is worth a professional fee.

I have a file of contract and paperwork from the surveyor. I contacted several suveyors. Many of them had no credentials when i checked them out further.... This guy did. I have a two surveys from him on the same boat, . I think it was hit on the head there was collusion. I paid for a rigging survey too. So why would I be trying to get off cheap on the hull survey? He offered to do the survey for cheaper because he had previously surveyed the boat the prior season. I said fine, but wanted a list of items checked. He agreed. He botched it. If i could have found someone in the area more qualified i would have, i should have flown someone in.

[JArcherM]

Originally Posted by joelhemington

This is a huge bummer. If the guy was drunk, it was because he was sitting in the owner's office drinking Mai Tais, celebrating. He surveyed the boat twice and missed the spliced mast both times? This is a snake bite and smells of collusion. I'm currently in a similar situation with a boat in Trinidad I can't even get to. It's a boat I'd love to have but there's no way in hell I'll be hiring a remote surveyor and trusting him to give me the honest scoop on the real condition of the boat. So until I can get there and be present for the survey and sea trial, my money is staying in my pocket. In your case, it sounds like the PO paid the guy enough for a clean bill of health to make your $1.000 seem trivial. If this was a hurricane boat he picked up cheap and did some fast repairs on he's already made a killing off you. I think I'd hold off on any settlement and contact the surveyor's underwriter once you have a firm assessment of the costs involved. Karma can be a beautiful thing sometimes. If there was a broker involved this could become a real mares nest for all of them.

I think you are 100% dead on correct.

[jmschmidt]

I've mentioned this several times on this and other boating forum. Most surveys are not worth the paper they are printed, even ones done by members of various survey or organizations. The only two mandatory reasons to have a survey are for insurance and if you plan on taking out a loan on on the boat.
Otherwise round up a few friends who really know boats ask them to have a look. Don't have any friends like that? Maybe you really should not be looking at buying a boat just now.
There is plenty of info on the internet to educate yourself. I have archived at least 200 pieces of valuable internet info on what DIYers should look at when buying or owning and maintaining a boat.
Don't be so lazy and don't plan on having any legal recourse against a junk survey even if the surveyor is stone somber.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by JArcherM

Yup. Very well known in the islands. After looking his name up on CF m not the first. Wish I knew I could have just punched in his name to cd search. Lol. Wow.

In which "islands"?

Lots of people tossing around legal action suggestions, but whether thats even viable depends on venue.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by jmschmidt

I've mentioned this several times on this and other boating forum. Most surveys are not worth the paper they are printed, even ones done by members of various survey or organizations. The only two mandatory reasons to have a survey are for insurance and if you plan on taking out a loan on on the boat.
Otherwise round up a few friends who really know boats ask them to have a look. Don't have any friends like that? Maybe you really should not be looking at buying a boat just now.
There is plenty of info on the internet to educate yourself. I have archived at least 200 pieces of valuable internet info on what DIYers should look at when buying or owning and maintaining a boat.
Don't be so lazy and don't plan on having any legal recourse against a junk survey even if the surveyor is stone somber.

Another very useful reason to have a survey is to have an 'independent' third party stating potential issues clearly, in writing. It is far easier to negotiate based on a survey report with the seller than based on my very experienced friend said.

[more]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Another very useful reason to have a survey is to have an 'independent third party stating potential issues clearly, in writing. It is far easier to negotiate based on a survey report with the seller than based on my very experienced friend said.

How does your cabbage grow, why do you think any survey, friends or your world impact price seller want to accomplish.
Price negotiation is other stuff in the process.
If somebody accepts your offer for a boat that has a normal market price or is under market price, be very careful.

[Hesti]

Very first point: You discovered the issues in time, noone was hurt. That is the main thing!!!

The question is, whether you consider it worth your time to run after the money (surveyor / insurance company) or whether you focus on getting the boat in shape and go sailing.

We bought one boat with a surveyor (who did a very good job) and the others, we assessed condition ouselves - accepting, that there would be more to do than we saw pre-purchase.

So - it might be worth taking stock and bringing things into perspective: What would a similar boat to the one you bought cost brand new today, what did you pay and how much will the repairs cost? And how much effort will it likely be, to get the money? And how long will it take? Chances are, that you will need a quote for the repairs first, then the surveyor and insurance company can take their time to make decisions and potentially decline some of the work, ... . Chances are, that before their decision you are not allowed to proceed with the repairs if you want them payed by the insurance. Then, once they have accepted, you need to get the repairs done. This can easily cost you this years sailing season. So, it would need to be a substantial amount of money to make this worth it.

Another aspect to take into account is "normal" annual cost of boat maintenance and repairs - even if there are many examples differing from it, I am a fan of budgeting 10 % of todays cost of a similar brand new boat - if all work is done by boatyards and the boat is maintained on a very high level of perfection. To commission a boat to your needs is often above this in the first one or two years.

Another angle might be, whether the description of the boat by the broker or pre-owner was in good faith.

So - it boils down to "is the cost for getting the boat sorted significant compared to normal annual cost and is it worth your time (and the time you can't sail) to run after the money". A very personal decision.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by more

How does your cabbage grow, why do you think any survey, friends or your world impact price seller want to accomplish.
Price negotiation is other stuff in the process.
If somebody accepts your offer for a boat that has a normal market price or is under market price, be very careful.

Summer cabbage is fine,
At least in the US, you typically do not perform the survey till you have signed a purchase agreement for a fixed price with a deposit. If the survey shows up significant issues with the boat then you can either back out, ask for the issues to be repaired or negotiate a price reduction with the seller.
So the survey often has a lot to do with the final price paid.

[hpeer]

Coulda, shoulda, woulda aside...you have the boat and it has issues.

I strongly believe the answer to the question is a very personal one, what is your personality? Are you the kind if guy who will relish the court engagement and derive satisfaction from it? Or are you the one who wants to get out sailing?

A buddy of mine, when discussing divorce, said “Just pay up and get out as soon as possible. Get to the healing phase.” For ME it is better to eat the loss and move forward. The screwing I got (and I got one) is somewhat diminished by the involvement in making the boat right and getting on the water. I derive satisfaction (foolish pride) in doing something better than a “professional”.

That does not make this the correct path for you, just for me.

It is offered as another way to look at your dilemma that may make your decision easier.

I have had poor surveys that cost us close to $10,000 to fix. Not as bad as yours but bad enough. I know the anger about being lied to and cheated. Sucks.

10 years on, and a TON of work and money latter, we live on this boat full time and could not be happier. (Exaggeration, I can ALWAYS be happier! LOL). We could not replace the boat for 3 times the resale value. In the fullness of time things worked out.

But again, our experience, may not apply to you.