Surveyor was drunk during survey - What do I do?

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

name me where, what college, what university, what school, what educational qualities, what experience requirement, what apprenticeship course, what accreditation, etc, a boat surveyor requires to hang up his shingle..... ?????

All you state above is available however, leagally all one needs is the $40 for business cards.

[MicHughV]

I've met and got to know countless " boat surveyors" in 40 odd years of sailing. While some were certainly more knowledgeable and experienced than others about boats, not a single one of them, had any kind of " formal" training in this art. Not one !!

Interestingly, the "good" surveyors are usually booked months in advance, usually always thru' "word of mouth" recommendations, so if you're in a hurry, and you need a survey done " tomorrow", odds are you will likely get a "newbie" surveyor, who may,..or may not know diddly squat about boats.

Not trying to disparage boat surveyors, but certainly, caution is required, when hiring one to do a boat survey. If in doubt, ask for some references.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

I've met and got to know countless " boat surveyors" in 40 odd years of sailing. While some were certainly more knowledgeable and experienced than others about boats, not a single one of them, had any kind of " formal" training in this art. Not one !!

Interestingly, the "good" surveyors are usually booked months in advance, usually always thru' "word of mouth" recommendations, so if you're in a hurry, and you need a survey done " tomorrow", odds are you will likely get a "newbie" surveyor, who may,..or may not know diddly squat about boats.

Not trying to disparage boat surveyors, but certainly, caution is required, when hiring one to do a boat survey. If in doubt, ask for some references.

I too, as a surveyor advise due diligence. There are about 250 marine surveyors in Ontario. Over the last 30 years I saw the same 8 or 9 faces at every course I took. Its no guarantee but at Least SAMS members have continuing education requirements. It's just like a doctor ... would you rather hire a doctor that graduated at the bottom of his class or one that didn't go to medical school at all ?

[MicHughV]

True, as stated above above some boat surveyors have gone to the trouble of going to continuing education or other courses, power to them. I've known some of them and they really know their stuff....very impressive to say the least, in demonstrating their knowledge and skill and boat savvy.
Alas, they represent only a tiny slice of the boat surveyors in general.

I've been on boat surveys, where the boat surveyor arrives at 6 am and doesn't leave till 8 pm that night, and still takes another 2 days or so to put together an incredibly comprehensive survey report with 100's of photo's that reads like a telephone book.

Weigh that against a boat survey that takes 2 hours and the report is a few typed pages of mostly canned verbiage....

The bottom line for any prospective buyer is to shop around for surveyor recommendations. Talk to other boat owner, sales people, etc....pretty soon, you'll find one name mentioned more than others...

Good surveyors don't come cheap, are usually always booked for a month out, so don't let price and time be your selection guide...

[DanielI]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

No tongue in cheek. My point was that surveyors disclaimers are frequently overridden by the courts.I have been involved in several cases against surveyors where their disclaimers were turfed and yes you are correct if you take the time to find them there are several such cases online showing that. No need for the judge to be a "renegade", simply that his interpretation is the only one that counts ... otherwise we woouldn't need a judge at all. We could just look up the case law and say "I win".

Perhaps this is the confusion, I wasn’t asking about disclaimers, I was asking about the normal expectation. Absent a disclaimer, is it a normal expectation that a surveyor would be on the hook for costs of repairs for items he missed in the survey? I would have thought not, but what do I know. But I assume if I ask experienced marine claims lawyers, they could give me a yes or no answer.

I’m not trying to be argumentative, just to understand.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by DanielI

Perhaps this is the confusion, I wasn’t asking about disclaimers, I was asking about the normal expectation. Absent a disclaimer, is it a normal expectation that a surveyor would be on the hook for costs of repairs for items he missed in the survey? I would have thought not, but what do I know. But I assume if I ask experienced marine claims lawyers, they could give me a yes or no answer.

I’m not trying to be argumentative, just to understand.

Those would be the wrong people to ask, because the majority of issues never make it to a lawyer or to court.
Remember you are buying a survey of the vessel, not an insurance policy. It is ridiculous to think that you pay a surveyor $1,000 and he is now liable for all the items you find wrong for the next year on your new to you boat.

A survey gives a hopefully independent, impartial review of the vessel. No more.

[more]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

More:

You say: "What if the seller doesn't want "which shall form part of the purchase price"

In this part of the world, the offeree (the one to whom the offer is made by the offeror who makes the deposit as a sign of good faith) is perfectly at liberty to refuse to accept the offer as made. If he does so, he must "forthwith" return the deposit to the offeror. Failure to do so is, effectively, theft, and will be treated as such by the courts.

TP

because Croatia does not have a single codification of civil service rights.we use mix Roman Private law.

But for trade.selling,buying civil and company must obligate "Law on Obligations"
Simple this is law for deposit


(1) If at the time of concluding the contract one party gave the other a certain amount of money or a certain amount of other exchangeable things as a sign that the contract was concluded (down payment), the contract is considered concluded when the down payment is given, unless otherwise agreed.(But for taxation men this up is law, after deposit you have 15 days for inform tax-man)

(2) In case of fulfillment of the contract, the down payment must be returned or included in the fulfillment of the obligation.

(3) Unless otherwise agreed, the party who gave the down payment may not withdraw from the contract by leaving the down payment to the other party, nor may the other party do so by returning the double down payment.

Failure to fulfill the contract

Article 304

(1) If the party who gave the down payment is responsible for non-fulfillment of the contract, the other party may, at its option, demand fulfillment of the contract, if it is still possible, or claim damages,

(2) If the party who received the down payment is responsible for non-fulfillment of the contract, the other party may, at its option, demand fulfillment of the contract, if it is still possible, or request compensation and return of down payment, or request return of double down payment.

(3) In any case, when the other party demands the fulfillment of the contract, it is also entitled to compensation for the damage it suffers due to the delay.

(4) The court may, in the cases referred to in paragraphs 1 and 2 of this Article, at the request of an interested party, reduce an excessively large down payment.

Partial fulfillment of the contract

Article 305

(1) In the case of partial fulfillment of the obligation, the creditor may not retain the down payment, but may demand fulfillment of the rest of the obligation and compensation for delay, or claim damages for incomplete fulfillment, but in both cases the down payment is included in the compensation.

(2) If the creditor terminates the contract and returns what he received as partial fulfillment, he may choose among other claims belonging to one party when the other party is responsible for non-fulfillment of the contract.


But people ,company usually acepte deposit and this is a contract of sale

look this seller is Germany ,buyer Belgian boat is in Croatia
I was in Vodice this weekend, as announced.
This is what Rossi said:
- she sent you an SMS message on May 21 to say that we are at 10:00 on May 22:
- she did not receive an answer to that;
- could not contact you on Saturday, no answer;
So here's what happened:
we visited the ship; there is no maintenance history op paper; the ship was on land for 4 years until it was purchased in 2014; maintenance was performed by ORKA (last 4 years) in the middle of ACI marina; a test drive was not possible because there was too much wind; I wanted to talk to a mechanic; so we went there and talked to the boss, mr. Ivan; suggested a test drive on the water and a computer check of the engine; it was interesting, they were helpful with explanations.
We told Rossi we wanted to think; ok no problem, (end any obligation)they were at the marina all day and wanted to come home on sunday morning.
When I called her later, she was not answering the phone. I tried again a little later; then she said ‘the boat was sold’, in the afternoon a man came, put the money on the table and immediately paid the advance. And he paid more than they asked for!
However, before we started the trip she told me that I was the first to react and that I had the first choice.
SOLD? So I said it’s not possible, it’s not true at all, this isn’t working. But she was so excited about the sale and the money that it was more in demand. I was shocked and cut off communication. What can we do? So much time and preparation, more than 3000 km in 4 days. All for nothing. It's not a game. She never said someone else was coming this afternoon, she didn’t give me a deadline. Does this work? They sell, they decide, I have no problem with that. But if someone crosses that distance with the intention of buying, then that’s not what you’re doing. It wasn't a vacation. Are we upset? Well, we’re adults, but honestly, yes, we’re upset. It is not respect, there is no empathy, there is no understanding for people.
In addition, we loved the short stay, the kind locals, the very nice surroundings.
I just wanted to let you know about our experience

[Greg K]

Originally Posted by JArcherM

Ok, maybe not. But I think I might become a surveyor.

Quick version is I asked him to specifically look at some things during survey on a 50+ boat. One being rudder bearings. He called out some superficial things and rated everything else satisfactory. I had seen the boat on the hard and told him I had felt some play in the rudder and wanted to see if the bearing play was excessive.

Reading over the survey there was nothing that would bring concern to anything. So I moved forward with the purchase

After purchasing the boat found lots of things really quickly without disassembly. Found all the electrical in was wacko, shorepower 110 completely unsafe. Found the boom at the gooseneck was wore out, (needed to be bushed, the rig had been down in a hurricane and the mast had a splice below deck behind the pullout. It looks (or sounds) like the foredeck at the babystay lifted about 1/4 inch and creaks, and the rudder bearings were completely shot, not to mention the linkage from the gear drive steering to the quadrant is wore out and the hole where the endlink goes through the quadrant has about 1/4 inch of play allowing the pin to move almost 30 degrees in the hole. On the first passage the rudder bearings were squeaking so loud I thought it was the rubber dinghy at first rubbing on the solar arch, It got progressively worse over the next 300 miles to the point where every it needs immediate repair and who knows about the rudder.

We have kids onboard and so these kinds of things are extra concerning. Not to mention cost. During purchase I was looking at two boats that were the same make and made the decision to purchase this boat based on his survey. Obviously I am concerned about resale value and safety. I think there may have been some facilitation of sale happening (maybe a relationship between the seller and surveyor)

I called the surveyor. He immediately offered to refund the cost of the survey (1000.00). That doesn't even begin to touch the repairs. He offered the refund as long as I sign an indemnity agreement. Im hesitant. Thoughts?

Im not super keen on a lawsuit but these things are going to cost a ton, I have only owned the boat for 2 months. These things are precisely why I had a survey in the first place.

Thoughts? Any good marine attorneys willing to chime in? Do I sign it and take my 1000.00 back or do I start the process?

Sorry to hear about your troubles. Late to the thread and haven't seen all of the replies, but most seem to talk about the surveyor's incompetence.
My take on your situation, for what it's worth, is that you've been had. The surveyor knew exactly what he was doing and was paid by others to make the sale happen. His quick offer to refund your money for the survey is a tell. It happens, and probably you're s**t out of luck. Take the refund and make the best out of a bad situation.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by DanielI

Absent a disclaimer, is it a normal expectation that a surveyor would be on the hook for costs of repairs for items he missed in the survey? I would have thought not, but what do I know.

But I assume if I ask experienced marine claims lawyers, they could give me a yes or no answer.

- Sorry, there is no normal in these matters.

- Sorry there are no yes or no answers, if there were, admiralty lawyers would be out of work and we'd just need a clerk not .
a judge

DISCLAIMER !
No, I'm not a lawyer but have attended several admiralty law seminars concerning surveys/surveying over the last 30 years. I've testified in several cases as expert witness and witness of fact. A friend and dock neighbour for 20yrs is a highly regarded attorney who specializes in admiralty, we often discuss these matter over a beer..

[Fore and Aft]

Don't forget Boatpoker you can just buy a boat surveying business and don't even need to print new business cards.
Cheers

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

Don't forget Boatpoker you can just buy a boat surveying business and don't even need to print new business cards.
Cheers

You interested ?
I'm in the process of winding down. It comes with a great website

[Fore and Aft]

Boatpoker it worked for my competition, the guy who brought the business is well known for his "casual" surveys. I even recommend him myself when people ring with dodgy boats that need surveys.
Cheers

[StoneCrab]

I agree with approaching the surveyors underwriter. Jumping to a suit just increases costs to you without a guaranty of income

And

What makes you think a lawyer will be any better than your surveyor?

I've seen more incompetence in the legal profession than any other.

You will likely need to hire another licensed, bonded and insured surveyor to prove your case. They should be a member of SAMS, NAMS or. ACMS The second surveyor should not be coaxed. Just hire him and let him do his job as a professional. See what he says and what he finds.

Another suggestion is to get your insurance company on board. They will know the industry and legalities. They will want you as safe as possible to minimize their risk. Sometimes these companies have people for just this type of situation.

[Mark Johnson]

Originally Posted by JArcherM

Ok, maybe not. But I think I might become a surveyor.

Quick version is I asked him to specifically look at some things during survey on a 50+ boat. One being rudder bearings. He called out some superficial things and rated everything else satisfactory. I had seen the boat on the hard and told him I had felt some play in the rudder and wanted to see if the bearing play was excessive.

Reading over the survey there was nothing that would bring concern to anything. So I moved forward with the purchase

After purchasing the boat found lots of things really quickly without disassembly. Found all the electrical in was wacko, shorepower 110 completely unsafe. Found the boom at the gooseneck was wore out, (needed to be bushed, the rig had been down in a hurricane and the mast had a splice below deck behind the pullout. It looks (or sounds) like the foredeck at the babystay lifted about 1/4 inch and creaks, and the rudder bearings were completely shot, not to mention the linkage from the gear drive steering to the quadrant is wore out and the hole where the endlink goes through the quadrant has about 1/4 inch of play allowing the pin to move almost 30 degrees in the hole. On the first passage the rudder bearings were squeaking so loud I thought it was the rubber dinghy at first rubbing on the solar arch, It got progressively worse over the next 300 miles to the point where every it needs immediate repair and who knows about the rudder.

We have kids onboard and so these kinds of things are extra concerning. Not to mention cost. During purchase I was looking at two boats that were the same make and made the decision to purchase this boat based on his survey. Obviously I am concerned about resale value and safety. I think there may have been some facilitation of sale happening (maybe a relationship between the seller and surveyor)

I called the surveyor. He immediately offered to refund the cost of the survey (1000.00). That doesn't even begin to touch the repairs. He offered the refund as long as I sign an indemnity agreement. Im hesitant. Thoughts?

Im not super keen on a lawsuit but these things are going to cost a ton, I have only owned the boat for 2 months. These things are precisely why I had a survey in the first place.

Thoughts? Any good marine attorneys willing to chime in? Do I sign it and take my 1000.00 back or do I start the process?

Loose rudder bearings are often more annoying than dangerous, for a while.
Most boats have whacko electronics, but if new, it has not appeared yet.
Once older, many boats have had dozens of workers perform dozens of retrofits, for the lowest price... in order to get the job and maximize profits. Doing first class work that will truly stand the test of time, and drawing a schematic of one's work, is a great way to loose profit... I KNOW! This is why I built my 3 cruising boats.

The same is true of every aspect of these incredibly complex machines. Boat owners who do not build boats, have no idea. The days of true craftsmen taking pride in their work, even where it is not obvious, is long gone. There are exceptions I'm sure, but very few.

To really survey a boat THOROUGHLY, climb the mast and test fittings, test engine oil, haul out and test paint adhesion, bearings, etc... and go over every aspect of an electrical system put in by 27 different guys, etc., would take weeks at best, and cost many many thousands.

What you get for $1,000 is a quick glance at most of hundreds of things, or a careful look at a fraction of them. There is likely a disclaimer clause you have not read as well. You would loose in court, imo.

If you sell the boat, you are required to point these issues out, now that you know about them. (Catch 22)

I suggest that you do a LOT of reading about how these things should be, repair (or hire it repaired) where practical, and find a way to get around the rest, and make the best of it. You might even need to amend your cruising aspirations, or take a loss, sell the boat, and roll the dice, again.

Best of luck,
Mark

[JBsurfin]

Originally Posted by JArcherM

Ok, maybe not. But I think I might become a surveyor.

Quick version is I asked him to specifically look at some things during survey on a 50+ boat. One being rudder bearings. He called out some superficial things and rated everything else satisfactory. I had seen the boat on the hard and told him I had felt some play in the rudder and wanted to see if the bearing play was excessive.

Reading over the survey there was nothing that would bring concern to anything. So I moved forward with the purchase

After purchasing the boat found lots of things really quickly without disassembly. Found all the electrical in was wacko, shorepower 110 completely unsafe. Found the boom at the gooseneck was wore out, (needed to be bushed, the rig had been down in a hurricane and the mast had a splice below deck behind the pullout. It looks (or sounds) like the foredeck at the babystay lifted about 1/4 inch and creaks, and the rudder bearings were completely shot, not to mention the linkage from the gear drive steering to the quadrant is wore out and the hole where the endlink goes through the quadrant has about 1/4 inch of play allowing the pin to move almost 30 degrees in the hole. On the first passage the rudder bearings were squeaking so loud I thought it was the rubber dinghy at first rubbing on the solar arch, It got progressively worse over the next 300 miles to the point where every it needs immediate repair and who knows about the rudder.

We have kids onboard and so these kinds of things are extra concerning. Not to mention cost. During purchase I was looking at two boats that were the same make and made the decision to purchase this boat based on his survey. Obviously I am concerned about resale value and safety. I think there may have been some facilitation of sale happening (maybe a relationship between the seller and surveyor)

I called the surveyor. He immediately offered to refund the cost of the survey (1000.00). That doesn't even begin to touch the repairs. He offered the refund as long as I sign an indemnity agreement. Im hesitant. Thoughts?

Im not super keen on a lawsuit but these things are going to cost a ton, I have only owned the boat for 2 months. These things are precisely why I had a survey in the first place.

Thoughts? Any good marine attorneys willing to chime in? Do I sign it and take my 1000.00 back or do I start the process?

Hopefully you asked for proof of his insurance coverage prior to agreeing to sign him on for the survey. You would be surprised how many people have companies as LLC's and no coverage. You can sue the LLC, but if no assets, nothing. If you have established coverage by him, tell him to place his E&O carrier on notice. Get a qualified re-survey and estimates on repairs. pursue the claim. Atty if needed.. Unless you only paid 8K or less for the boat, which I doubt.