Surveyor was drunk during survey - What do I do?

[Shaneesprit]

I haven’t read all of the replies.
But you had your doubts and paid this company ( man ) doesn’t matter but view it as a company, to deal with those doubts.
Do you have evidence such as emails to back up your claim that you wanted to specifically include items of concern?
Honestly if you paid for a survey and don’t make a lawsuit after a bad survey- what was the survey for?
Surely you would of walked away without the survey.
First step is to get a real survey done but inform the surveyor that you want to use his survey for a lawsuit and why - so that he can make a judgment.
Do it now the longer the time is between the first and second survey the less you have to go on!

[Night_Sailor]

I am stunned at some of these responses. You won't like what I have to say.

Take some personal responsibility! Who picked the surveyor? You? Whether you did or not, either way, you screwed up. What did you expect? A perfect boat? Even new boats have many problems.

Here are the facts:

You paid for the cheapest possible survey, $1000 for a 50 foot boat, and that is exactly what you got--a half day inspection followed by a short report.

Did you pull the mast? That could cost more than $1000. Probably that much just to remove and re-step. A yachtsman would rewire and repaint at the same time. So what if the mast has a splice? That is not uncommon or necessarily a bad thing. It would not be a bad choice to skip pulling the mast, but you should have recognized the future need.

More importantly, did you send someone up in a bosun's chair to look at the terminals? No. That has a high cost, and requires labor for two people--not one, increasing the cost. Add another $1000 just for that. Ok so many might pass on a rig inspection, if its a newer boat, and you chose not to do that. That is reasonable. For longer passages it's still something that should be done--a wise move.

Did you remove the rudder? If you were concerned about it, and you were---you should have pulled it and before proceeding with the purchase, and replaced the bearings--cheap parts. Instead you sloughed off the responsibility on someone else, choose the cheap option and did not pay the cost to validate it was inspected properly.

Old wiring? Some people say it should be replaced every ten years. Didn't you look at it? Didn't you test every circuit?

You talk about AC wiring issues. Did you test out the shore power connections at the dock? You complain about it afterwards. No doubt it could be made functional with knowledgeable intervention, often it is easier to start with all new. Did you not have any interest in verifying the functionality of any these things yourself?

Did you follow your surveyor around? What does his report say?

Did you take the boat out for a test sail and validate that everything worked? My guess is no.

Now you blame someone else for all these issues. Laughable.

You want to blame the surveyor, after asking for the cheapest possible survey. Your purpose was clearly to keep the costs down. It was false economy. A good survey will cost way more--its purpose is to identify problems and negotiate the price down.

Worse, your judgement is flawed if your thought this unproven boat was ready for voyaging 300 miles, right off the bat, with children aboard? How naive! Unsound judgement!

These were all your choices.

You get what you pay for. You could have rejected the survey since you felt the rudder bearings were a problem, and found someone else.

So now you have a boat that needs repairs at very high yard fees. What is really happening, is you are freaking out about those costs. This is like a Ferrari. Either fix it yourself, or expect to pay high labor fees for a variety of technical work. You can still expect high parts costs too.

I would take the money and move on. Sign the agreement. Fix the boat. Do the repairs yourself if you want to save money. Fix it and enjoy it, or unload it.

Another option is to trade down for a smaller boat in nicer condition. Maintenance cost will be lower. No doubt there is someone out there with Bristol condition smaller boat, who has the skills to bring your boat into cruise-worthy condition if you lack in the interest, skills, or resources.

If you decided to take legal action against the surveyor, you will lose. It will be yet another poor decision on your part.

[cakesy]

> He called out some superficial things and rated everything else satisfactory.



Yes, welcome to the land of surveying. They suck and charge a lot.

[Shaneesprit]

I had a house survey and it’s not a lot different, he pulled everything and recommended 4 more surveys and made the purchase impossible.
You cannot expect everyone to know about boats, ( or houses ) that’s why you employ a surveyor, while it’s true there is poor judgment here, the point of the survey is to be sure your making the right decision or to cover the bank from lending on something that is not worth the money or too much of a risk.
Unless the survey was to only survey the value of the boat,. Surveyor is liable.
If your unsure now then Survey again elsewhere.
I bought my boat without a Survey so well there are things I didn’t know that maybe a surveyor would of found, but I paid my money and took my chances ( I also hadn’t seen the boat before I paid for it - I did have someone else go to look and take it out for a quick sail ) like I said I am sure a surveyor would of found somethings and maybe missed some others. Point is he did pay for a survey so at least should expect to have something in an ok condition.
What we don’t know is - what is the actual overall condition of the boat?

[Juggerknot]

Since you had prepared for a more costly survey, now might be the time to pay for a good one, sounds like the boat could have had significant hurricane damage that was concealed. Go after the drunken bums errors and omissions policy and get made whole, life's to short to be getting duped on your new to you beni...

[Rjstutch]

Originally Posted by Night_Sailor

I am stunned at some of these responses. You won't like what I have to say.

Take some personal responsibility! Who picked the surveyor? You? Whether you did or not, either way, you screwed up. What did you expect? A perfect boat? Even new boats have many problems.

Here are the facts:

You paid for the cheapest possible survey, $1000 for a 50 foot boat, and that is exactly what you got--a half day inspection followed by a short report.

Did you pull the mast? That could cost more than $1000. Probably that much just to remove and re-step. A yachtsman would rewire and repaint at the same time. So what if the mast has a splice? That is not uncommon or necessarily a bad thing. It would not be a bad choice to skip pulling the mast, but you should have recognized the future need.

More importantly, did you send someone up in a bosun's chair to look at the terminals? No. That has a high cost, and requires labor for two people--not one, increasing the cost. Add another $1000 just for that. Ok so many might pass on a rig inspection, if its a newer boat, and you chose not to do that. That is reasonable. For longer passages it's still something that should be done--a wise move.

Did you remove the rudder? If you were concerned about it, and you were---you should have pulled it and before proceeding with the purchase, and replaced the bearings--cheap parts. Instead you sloughed off the responsibility on someone else, choose the cheap option and did not pay the cost to validate it was inspected properly.

Old wiring? Some people say it should be replaced every ten years. Didn't you look at it? Didn't you test every circuit?

You talk about AC wiring issues. Did you test out the shore power connections at the dock? You complain about it afterwards. No doubt it could be made functional with knowledgeable intervention, often it is easier to start with all new. Did you not have any interest in verifying the functionality of any these things yourself?

Did you follow your surveyor around? What does his report say?

Did you take the boat out for a test sail and validate that everything worked? My guess is no.

Now you blame someone else for all these issues. Laughable.

You want to blame the surveyor, after asking for the cheapest possible survey. Your purpose was clearly to keep the costs down. It was false economy. A good survey will cost way more--its purpose is to identify problems and negotiate the price down.

Worse, your judgement is flawed if your thought this unproven boat was ready for voyaging 300 miles, right off the bat, with children aboard? How naive! Unsound judgement!

These were all your choices.

You get what you pay for. You could have rejected the survey since you felt the rudder bearings were a problem, and found someone else.

So now you have a boat that needs repairs at very high yard fees. What is really happening, is you are freaking out about those costs. This is like a Ferrari. Either fix it yourself, or expect to pay high labor fees for a variety of technical work. You can still expect high parts costs too.

I would take the money and move on. Sign the agreement. Fix the boat. Do the repairs yourself if you want to save money. Fix it and enjoy it, or unload it.

Another option is to trade down for a smaller boat in nicer condition. Maintenance cost will be lower. No doubt there is someone out there with Bristol condition smaller boat, who has the skills to bring your boat into cruise-worthy condition if you lack in the interest, skills, or resources.

If you decided to take legal action against the surveyor, you will lose. It will be yet another poor decision on your part.

Not everyone has the skills and knowledge to check these things. Other than being a trainee deck officer on merchant ships early in my career, i have worked in corporate data centres or offices all my life. Despite being on boats, and owning boats all my life, I wouldn't have a clue about checking or doing half the things you mentioned.

Some people rely on the expertise of others and pay for their services. If I am sick I go to a physician/doctor, if I need something delivered I use a courier, if I need my house painted I employ a house painter. I don't go online and self diagnose my sickness, or drive across the city, state or country to deliver something, or try to paint my house with no experience or understanding of preparation, paints and methods of application. Most would agree!

I agree that selection of the marine surveyor was poor and somewhat nieve. If you are unhappy with the work withold payment until it is. If you have already paid get compensated, and then get someone who can do the job as you would expect before laying down your hard earned to buy the boat.

I think it is fair to outsource things that you are not expert or even competent in, just hopefully we get someone who can do the job competently. I don't think that is an unreasonable expectation. Why should a boat inspection be different from a building inspection or any other service as mentioned in the thread.

Shouldn't there be more regulation for marine surveyors. Surely that would be a better overall way of looking at this issue rather than accepting these poor standards, and bashing the messenger!

[Russian007]

Wow, lot of victim blaming here. Interesting that you know about marine trades and yet still got hosed. My friend literally grew up in a shipyard and has worked the trades all his life, yet he too got burned and paid too much for a lemon. Don't fell alone!

Surveyors...I have a small sample size, I've hired 3 surveyors, but I thought they all sucked and were a total F'ing joke. All 3 spent a lot of effort on inspecting fire extinguishers and life jackets. Jesus. Really? All 3 also tapped on the hull with their magic hammer-- where do they get those hammers? Asgard? As far as I can tell, the hammer thing is marine theater as is most of what they do. They all touted their resumes, ex Green Beret, ex God of Yanmar Techs, Ex "Something cool" in all three. Actually I've had five surveyors, one was the Geico Marine insurance salesman who did a "telephone survey" which included penetrating questions like "Is it currently floating?" and "would you describe the boat as in 'Good' condition?" and then the one and only decent survey I got was here-- I asked the membership for a digital survey and gave background and photos. Got some great insights on things to look for when it was hauled out.

Anyways, I'd find a good lawyer with the idea of a single consult and then try and pressure the bond holders or surveyor's insurance for some settlement. Do it on your own. You're looking at 15-20k in repairs? You could lose because that bond holder does NOT want to write you a check and lawyers fees could easily hit 10k in a losing effort. Then there's small claims. But the issue there is collecting on the settlement assuming you win.

[Fore and Aft]

Russian007 you might need to get your ears checked if you think a surveyors hammer is "theatre" I had a client in his 70s today who interrupted my virtuoso hammer performance when he clearly heard the sound of some delamination on the hull. I could not even tell you how many times I have found rot or delamination on a hull thanks to my magic hammer.
As for where I got it from, Trade Tools here in Oz sold it to me along with free "How to be a marine surveyor" DVD.
Cheers

[Russian007]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

Russian007 you might need to get your ears checked if you think a surveyors hammer is "theatre" I had a client in his 70s today who interrupted my virtuoso hammer performance when he clearly heard the sound of some delamination on the hull. I could not even tell you how many times I have found rot or delamination on a hull thanks to my magic hammer.
As for where I got it from, Trade Tools here in Oz sold it to me along with free "How to be a marine surveyor" DVD.
Cheers

Whatever. I had a "Certified" surveyor meticulously tap the hull of a mahogany sailboat I ended up purchasing. He'd stop several times and say "Hear that difference? This plank is rotten". He indicated many spots that were rotten. Guess what though? He was 100% wrong. None of the spots he highlighted had rot. And numerous areas he said were find in fact needed new planks and or frames. Another surveyor pitched me on his fancy moisture meter. When he showed up for the survey he said he "forgot it" and said it wouldn't be useful anyway because the boat was in the water.

[Island Time O25]

A lawsuit in the middle of Carribean by someone living in Seattle will be another fleece job. No experienced attorney will take such a case without a hefty retainer. Plus justice in small insular communities means quite something else than in urban US. Especially when the plaintiff is an interloper and the defendant may have strong community ties and local connections.

The whole situation stinks. Buying a 50' boat 4,000 miles away from your home base and only one look see with a cheapest surveyor (who may have had ties to the seller if he "missed" so much negative stuff) does not make a happy story.

On the other hand you did save 1000s of $$ on comprehensive survey incl. launch, demasting, extra visits, etc. And still might've ended up not buying this boat. So perhaps it's a wash.

[HeinSdL]

I think this might be like swearing in church, but I think the whole concept of getting a surveyor pretending it's going to help the buyer in any way is a bit flawed (with helping I mean: leading to a post-purchase pleasant and easy experience getting acquainted with the boat). I bought my boat from the yard second hand about 12 years ago. With the boat about 8 years old and looking really amazing (as new actually) I did not think about a survey but had to get one done because I was financing a large chunk of the purchase price.

The report was very long and colourful (loads of pictures) but it said exactly nothing. Except that the boat looked very good, which I could have pointed out myself. The lender was surprised the underwriters thought it was good enough. Anyway the deal went through.

And then the problems started.

- Flexofold fell off after about 500 miles
- Steering pedestal lower bearing seized
- Solid shroud end swages cracked
- Winches mounted incorrectly (can explain in what way if anyone interested)
- Top rudder bearing came loose
- Wind indicator has never really worked till today due to I know now a bad cable in the mast

Plus a whole bunch of smaller issues.

But none of these issues would have been identified by a surveyor anyway, the yard helped out very well to correct some of the problems (I would definitely buy from them again, although my current boat is also my last boat) and to be frank, this is what it means to own a boat, in my view & experience. Things break the whole friggin' time.

So you buy the boat on the basis that things break the whole friggin' time and start fixing. More so just after purchase because that's when you probably have to catch up with a lot of delayed maintenance. Over time maintenance should reach some acceptable degree of regularly replacing/upgrading/etc. But this never stops. This year I have to take the mast down to replace the shrouds, service all the halyards, check/renew the blocks and replace some of the wiring (I hope to have wind back due to a new cable and I will also encapsulate all the wiring in a dyneema sleeve to prevent wear and to prevent slapping which is extremely annoying when eg, at anchor). And then I have a mast which I can fully rely on to do its job, for 10 years or so.

The question though is, is a boat still affordable, worthwhile & fun if fixing things yourself is not part of the 'fun'. I doubt it very much. Personally, I love it, and I like to think the boat is less of a misery due to things not failing the whole time.

[boatpoker]

You wouldn't hire the worst mechanic you could find. You wouldn't hire the worst dentist or lawyer you could find. Why do so many of you hire incompetent surveyors ?

I've been in the business for a few decades and yes, many of you are right, the majority of them are sad excuses. There are however, some exceptional ones out there.

You mission should you choose to accept it ....

[sck5]

You bought a 50 yr old boat and didnt flip all the switches to see if they did anything? You didnt imagine there would be a lot of refitting to do? I have bought two 20 yr old boats in my life and while the hull and mast were good, a lot of other stuff needed replacing. How could it be otherwise?

[Russian007]

Originally Posted by HeinSdL

The question though is, is a boat still affordable, worthwhile & fun if fixing things yourself is not part of the 'fun'. I doubt it very much. Personally, I love it, and I like to think the boat is less of a misery due to things not failing the whole time.

I agree. Dockside repair is $285/hr where I live, and they're not especially fast. So DIY is part of the contract for a lot of us. I like it. One of the things that attracted me to my current boat was that the engine and other systems were accessible. And none of the bolts and screws appeared rusted and seized. Electrical, if anything was TOO accessible. Something to consider

[BlueH2Obound]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

You wouldn't hire the worst mechanic you could find. You wouldn't hire the worst dentist or lawyer you could find. Why do so many of you hire incompetent surveyors ?

I've been in the business for a few decades and yes, many of you are right, the majority of them are sad excuses. There are however, some exceptional ones out there.

You mission should you choose to accept it ....

I understand what you said above, but a common problem is "How do you find a GOOD surveyor?" Word of mouth isn't always good, as another person's idea of good is "Cheap", or "didn't find anything wrong". The person charging the most isn't necessarily the best, or possibly, even good at ALL!

Boatpoker, you are intimately involved in surveying, and sound like you are a good surveyor, but you've got to see it from the other side. Many people don't buy a lot of boats, so they don't have a track record of working with surveyors, and knowing who the good ones are, and who to avoid.

The guy who surveyed a boat for me in Hawaii was THOROUGH!!! He found LOTS of items that I hadn't seen, or had seen, but didn't realize were a problem. He spent two days on the boat, one in water, one after pulled, and then during sea trial. WELL WORTH the time and money! The other two surveyors I've used . . . . well, not so much . . . Their surveys met the requirement to get the boats insured, but not much more than that.

When I vet a surveyor, (and I am by no means an expert, nor have I hired a large number of surveyors), I ask a lot of questions, and I ask for previous reports . . . however, sometimes the surveyor being vetted is GREAT at putting on a good face, and sends you the one and only thorough, in-depth survey he's ever done, and after you hire him, he surveys your boat, and the survey he provides doesn't even remotely hold a candle to the sample survey report(s) he sent you . . . and after receiving the survey, you have to point out that:

• the draft of the boat is NOT 15.5', but rather 5.5'
• and the beam is NOT 5.5', but rather 16.5'
• and the wing engine control panel, with hour meter clearly visible that he states was not found, was in fact in the pictures he included with the survey, as well as being pointed out during the survey.
• and the boat systems were in fact 12v, with a 24v start system, and NOT 32 volt
• and the main house battery bank was AGM, and NOT FLA
• and that it is kind of coincidental that the surveyed value is exactly the advertised price
• and that exhaust for the hydraunic heat that is a PROBLEM because it is not insulated, but rather has a wire screen protecting it is installed exactly in accordance with the manufacturers instructions, and NOT a violation of ABYC standards (reference please?)

Sometimes (not necessarily the case in the OP's case), the buyer does his due diligence, and asks everyone he can who they recommend, and asks for references, and doesn't go with the lowest price, and asks all the right questions, and STILL gets a piss poor, rubber stamp of a survey that is full of all sorts of inaccuracies, totally lacking in any attention to detail whatsoever, that basically says: "Nice Boat"!

That was my issue with a survey that I had done. The surveyor I chose came highly recommended, wasn't the most expensive, but wasn't the cheapest either. His sample survey report was excellent. The survey report provided was full of inaccuracies. As I stated, I am by no means an expert, but the surveyor only found two minor issues that I hadn't already found, and I disagreed with one of them, for which he couldn't even provide a reference. He DID find a corroded fitting that I hadn't found, but that was the only item that he found that I hadn't already known about.

When confronted with the inaccuracies, he changed a few, but stated that if I wanted him to rewrite the survey (ie; correct ALL the inaccuracies) there would be an additional charge. So I STILL have a survey stating that the boat has a 32v electrical system, among other things . . .

THAT is a big problem that many people are experiencing when it comes to choosing a surveyor.