Are YouTubers wrecking it for the rest of us?

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by MuffinMan

This. I see a lot about what people deserve and how they dont get paid enough. Saying people deserve this or that is a moral statement, not a reasoned argument. I've never seen anyone ask what exactly it is we are paying them for. I understand that everyone has equal value as a human being, and maybe spiritually everyone is special, but there is 7 or so billion people. Labor is one of the most plentiful resources out there and cheap. The Market Value of people is vastly different, earnings goes up when your labor is more rare and therefor more expensive. Supply and demand and all.

Being a burger flipper or waitress/er is not a job to support a family in a 1st world nation. While some people may have to do this just to get by increasing wages artificially wont help. These jobs simply arent worth the money. You have market value to demand more if your an engineer that takes years of schooling. However if I can teach a teenager to do your job in 3 on the job shifts then you dont command that much market value and I dont want to pay inflated prices because of that. I oversee a couple hundred people in a large company. Its absolutly true that 20% of my workers do 80% of the work. The other 80% dont care about their jobs and I spend my time trying to keep their mistakes from getting to the wrong ears. This is the easiest job you could have and its even pretty well above minimum wage but I still get minimum effort from most.

The world is not there to support you and no one is as invested in your life as you. No one can increase your market value but you. No matter how hard your life is only you can increase your market value. No matter how hard your life is, if you dont put in the work it wont get better in any measure. Its not that I'm not sympathic but all my and everyone elses sympathy accomplishes nothing. Hard work to gain skills, skills increase market value, more money. No one can make you learn new more valuable skills and I dont know anyone besides lefites thatll give you more money for nothing. I don't expect the owner of my company to pay me more than my skills are worth and I wouldn't want to pay workers more than their skills are worth. I often see this argument coming back to single motherhood but again, if your raising a kid alone then you probably made some bad choices. Yes there is always wild circustance that could abdicate someone of complete responsibility but mostly unplanned children you arent in a position to take care of is a prodcut of bad choices. While I am again sympathtic to the plight it doesnt change the economics of the matter. 1 kid or 7 kids later, unskilled work is worht the same amount of money. As has been said before too this habit of casting single mothers as heroines is also hamrful. While I acknoledge the job is hard it still sprung from bad choices and the welfare system in the US at least only encourages it. Why work hard to get better when I could get enough from the government by having another kid, no car and unemployed.

A big problem we are facing in the US and other 1st worlds is that tech came up too fast and the older generation cant keep up with what the market values. Tech has pushed in and brought down a huge portion of unskilled jobs and made many other low and mid level jobs outside the ability of older folks. We have an old lady here ( in her 70s) who is a supervisor. Over her life she has had many roles and eperiences which qualify her to be a supervisor. At least in the people skills department. The problem is she doesnt know how to use a computer. She cant open a tab. Doesnt know computer shortcuts. Doesnt understand how to operate the program which the whole company runs off (timesheets, billing etc...). Now, even though she is a lovly lady, she just drags down the team because everyone has to do her work since she either doesnt know how or is just too slow to be productive. Its not just that AI and automation are phasing out unskilled work, the jobs that are available take more skills to begin with now.

I dont think its true that workers build the buisness. A factory worker may put the parts together but this is a simple and repatative job that often requires minimal repetative processes. However without the owner there would be no resources, contracts, workspaces, company, jobs. Do the line workers putting together the parts set up the logisitics of recieveing materials, storage,getting them to the right places. Do the workers take the liability risk of all the employees working in the factory around tools and chemicals? Do they learn all the regulations of taxes, workers rights etc. etc. What exactly is it you are asking for more money for doing? Being a person that has bills like the rest of us? While various hired employees work on these various things it is the buisness owner that employs them all. Without him, his time, capital and risk the company wouldnt even exist for you to demand a living wage from. I am not rich now nor have I ever been. However I don't expect to die rich on the graces of someone else (unless my plan of just marrying rich pans out) and I dont expect to make more money because I "deserve a living wage". We often dont get what we deserve. And while we all may deserve a good and happy life no one desveres to take from me because I acheieved more than them.

The world is full of different places. What it takes to make a living in a 1st vs a 3rd world country are very different and comparing them is apples to oranges. I'm willing to bet that a aerospace engineer is less valued in most third world nations than a carpenter or other trades man. Yes I too have been places, seen things, the rich of the 1st worlds and the poverty of the 3rds.

I think one of the biggest mistakes that 1st worlds are making is this ignoring of the trades. I for one think a lot more young men would do better in life if we allowed them to choose a path, say JR year of high school, to either go down a college track or to take a trade apprenticship. Learning a trade and mastering it will build you a great life, often time allowing a more straightish forward path to owning a buisness and is valuable honorable work. No one ever seem to push this though. Its all about college college college for not a whole lot of gain out of college. The trend amongst employers is that information and tech is changing to fast for hard skill degree to be worth much. they would rather take a person with good traits like common sense, leadership, communication and reasoning, and teach themk to do a job. You got people coming out of college with degree in coding for languages that are 2 or 3 years out of date. Circuits are still circuits.

Ok ,replace my post further upstream with this post , you have pretty much said what I said ,but said it better....another guy I'd gladly buy a beer for. I very much get over the word "deserve".

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Completely irrelevant but , 1985 first apprentice motor mechanic pay packet was $73, mum got $25 for rent,Sheeba and Bogs came and picked me up in his old EH Holden, my shout for a stick of dope and a slab of VB ( carton of Victoria Bitter), I was rich!!..lol., embarrassingly hilarious when I think back, very simple creature. Happiness was a LH Torana with triple SU carbs and yellow terror head...lol

$50 for a slab of VB now, Bavarian ,German and many other imported beers are cheaper, thank god, totally opposite to the lyrics of "Die Yuppie Die" at the time.

Only drink imported beer
Taste like the pits, but at least it's dear

https://www.metrolyrics.com/die-yupp...s-dockers.html

An Oz of dope was close to the price of an Oz of gold at the time, if only we'd bought gold instead

And its a Yella Terra head

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by MuffinMan

This. I see a lot about what people deserve and how they dont get paid enough. Saying people deserve this or that is a moral statement, not a reasoned argument. I've never seen anyone ask what exactly it is we are paying them for. I understand that everyone has equal value as a human being, and maybe spiritually everyone is special, but there is 7 or so billion people. Labor is one of the most plentiful resources out there and cheap. The Market Value of people is vastly different, earnings goes up when your labor is more rare and therefor more expensive. Supply and demand and all.

That in a Nutshell spoken from a man with years in the trenches[emoji106]

The bottom line:
You can never pay a person what they "deserve"...
...... Only what you can afford!

[LEOCAT66]

YES I DO. Once the quiet peaceful places become popular and gain cruise terminals and airports the end of our lifestyle is headed south.

Resent seems to be building from those destinations which once welcomed us with open arms, as unique travelers.

Technology is truly a double edged sword. Too many of us are now flooding those special places

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

$50 for a slab of VB now, Bavarian ,German and many other imported beers are cheaper, thank god, totally opposite to the lyrics of "Die Yuppie Die" at the time.



An Oz of dope was close to the price of an Oz of gold at the time, if only we'd bought gold instead

And its a Yella Terra head

Dam, that dope obviously did effect my brain "Terra not Terror" ,how could I forget..lol. words like "holly double pumper and dragway mags are flooding back to me, very different world.

Yer, gold instead of dope, my god how wealthy we could of been!

[LEOCAT66]

YES I DO. Once the quiet peaceful places become popular and gain cruise terminals and airports the end of our lifestyle is headed south.

Resentment seems to be building from those very destinations, which once welcomed us with open arms, as unique travelers.

Technology is truly a double edged sword. Too many of us are now flooding those special places.


In the past, a sail on the horizon, was always welcome by the islanders. The “EAGLES” said it best, “Call It Paradise, Kiss it Goodbye”.

I recently viewed “BEYOND THE WEST HORIZON” by HISCOCK, which reminded me of how it used to be in those, hard to get to, special places. How refreshing and simple things were. The mystique has faded, the videos have replaced that feeling of the dream gained from beautiful magazine pages.

[Group9]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Unfortunately I agree with you Pelagic ,in regards to a race to the bottom, it's still not comparable in anyway to many places I've seen. A big topic that I could talk about in length, debt etc.

I did mention my generation (I'm 51), not that old, I was really talking about the many my age that didnt take the opportunities we all had but now cry victim. I lucked out, I've grown up on the tail end of a golden age.

In saying the above I've had employees complain about no money yet get cappuccinos delivered to the work place for them!

Obviously it's very hard to convey ones beliefs in a couple of paragraphs on a forum, never comes out complete , never represents accurately ones views, particularly when interpreted by someone with very different views on the subject (Mike

It's amazing that so many people don't see the correlation between hard work and sacrifice, and great reward. I have a brother, two years younger than me, who is very wealthy. We had the exact same opportunity in life. He chose to work his ass off, putting in 60 and 70 hour weeks, and starting two failed businesses, before his third and fourth ones made huge bucks.

I don't look at him and think he got something that I should have got. I don't look at him and think that because he worked harder, and took more risks than me, that he should pay my bills.

Yet, it is simply amazing how many people do think that very thing when they see people with more than they have.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Group9

It's amazing that so many people don't see the correlation between hard work and sacrifice, and great reward. I have a brother, two years younger than me, who is very wealthy. We had the exact same opportunity in life. He chose to work his ass off, putting in 60 and 70 hour weeks, and starting two failed businesses, before his third and fourth ones made huge bucks.

I don't look at him and think he got something that I should have got. I don't look at him and think that because he worked harder, and took more risks than me, that he should pay my bills.

Yet, it is simply amazing how many people do think that very thing when they see people with more than they have.

This is true, it's about choices, many dont want to accept this, everything has a cost, to choose is to renounce.

I'll use my situation again as an example, I deliberately chose not to have kids so I could focus my full attention and energy on my business, I wanted to retire young, I knew kids would most likely delay that. I had a vasectomy at 31. This decision has had a major bearing on me financially getting ahead.

Now ,I dont get to see Joey kick a football, my loss BUT I get to sit on a yacht in many different places around the world.... choices, take responsibility of your choices, own them.

I recently had a young couple (early 30's) on my boat, they want to go cruising. They flew to the carribean to experience it and lived it. I explained what I did with real estate, they could buy a vanilla house and pay it off for 30 years or they could buy something that had a flat downstairs for them to live in and 5 bedrooms upstairs they could rent out, the rents pay the morgage and put money in their pocket. I even showed them real estate online that's exactly that, as Im always looking, I explained what I'm currently doing with my money that safely earnt me 29% in aud this year.

That was 6 mths ago, so what have they done? Got pregnant accidentally, and purchased an overvalued 3 bedroom unit in Currumbin, almost a guaranteed life of wage slavery coming up , although they dont realize it yet......they had choices, they had information, they now live with the consequences their choices.

They wont be going cruising anytime soon.

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Being a Self-Made Millionaire in no way requires you to be an entrepreneur. It may be a common approach but in no way mandatory.

Self-Made simply means you worked, saved and invested to get to your financial position versus having it handed to you (ie: inherited wealth).

Funny thing about the whole, "you must have have inherited it" crowd...they miss that it's very rare for family wealth to last beyond the 3rd generation. Usually, the 1st Generation buckles down works hard and smart and builds up the wealth. Sometimes the 2nd Generation having seen the process, sometimes (not always) holds on or increases the wealth. By the 3rd Generation, they really have no idea where it came from and squander it.

Look at the Vanderbilts, Rockefellers, Kennedys...These were wildly, insanely wealthy at their peak...yet today, many are of the descendants are middle class and even the more wealthy among them are not even close to the levels of wealth at the families peak.

Mike, I won't throw names at you, but as Valhalla360 already stated, this is just plain wrong. The USA is adding almost 2000 millionaires a day, the vast majority of which are SELF-MADE. I won't provide a link because you can simply select your search method of choice to debunk this. The one thing that is absolutely alive and well is the American Dream.

From where does this incorrect view come? Are we becoming too modest in the states? I suppose that couldn't hurt. Still, there is ONE place in the world to go if you wish maximize your chances to become a self-made rich person, with only an idea and ambition to your name. Now, the older I get, the more I understand money isn't equal to happiness... but that is a different subject...

Who said it did? I thought the point was obvious; Cyan's post said nothing about the breakdown of who these '2000 a day' millionaires are nor their road to their 'American Dream', thus it had little or no meaning in the conversation.

Leaving aside the fact that 730,000 more 'millionaires' a year seem to have done very little to boost the economy for the majority, or at least the majority of people I know. What surprises me is that seemingly intelligent people don't, can't or won't understand that increased wages benefit* everyone, especially the one's with things to sell.

*At least in theory, on an infinite planet.


Would be interesting to see just how many of those new millionaires were self-made by providing goods or real service (advertising doesn't count, at least in my opinion), vs how many inherited it vs how many made it in the stock market.


As for the Vanderbilts, Rockefellers, Kennedys (or any other of the ultra-rich of bygone days) each of those cases are individual and, I'd assume, examples of continuing wealthiness amongst certain members of their families can still be found. (I've actually met a Rockefeller and a Kennedy, one when I was in a service industry-type role [windsurfing instructor], and both, at least by gossip, were still plenty rich, at least in comparison to us peons). This is not the place to discuss antitrust laws that broke up such fortunes, but suffice it to say that those laws, along with several other things, allowed the development of the middle class between the 50s and early 80s. For better or worse, the neo-liberal economic policies in place since then have put paid to that 'golden age' and we're headed back into another period of hyper income-equality, and it's not because (it seems to some that) 20% of the workers do 80% of the work (if I were a work-environment analyst, in that situation I'd have a long hard look at such workers primary managers).

The only difference in the 1890s-1920s is that the 'poor' are affluent enough to not starve to death, but are not affluent enough to, say, eat healthy enough to not be a burden to the healthcare systems of their respective countries.

Looks to me to be one of the worst sides of conservatism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tijv_T4BpSc

[daletournier]

Why do you think (assume) we cant see that higher wages better everyone? I haven't said that, I haven't seen anyone else say that.

My point was business's have to be able to afford to pay higher wages, business's have many costs that most employers have no idea of.

Here's one example as a ex business owner. I was responsible for my tax, no one collected it for me or paid it for me YET as a business owner I was responsible for holding all my employees income tax and paying it for them, this involved paying a book keeper and an account, I pay to manage their taxes.

Good and services tax, yep,I was responsible for collecting the gst , filling out BAS forms and paying the general public's gst to government, once again I paid a book keeper and a accountant , I was an unpaid tax collector for the government and got fined if I was a day late.

As mentioned earlier, I was responsible for paying my employees superannuation, their retirement fund, I had to pay 9% of their wage on top of their wage in to their superannuation accounts and once again book keeper and account to handle tthis. Who pays my pension?

So it's really easy to say "pay higher wages", here's a fact , for many years my wage was less than my employees and I sure did a hell of alot more work.

Numbers need to work, the feel good lefties often ignore this inconvenient truth....free money for all, that should work.

[MuffinMan]

Originally Posted by jimbunyard

Who said it did? I thought the point was obvious; Cyan's post said nothing about the breakdown of who these '2000 a day' millionaires are nor their road to their 'American Dream', thus it had little or no meaning in the conversation.

Leaving aside the fact that 730,000 more 'millionaires' a year seem to have done very little to boost the economy for the majority, or at least the majority of people I know. What surprises me is that seemingly intelligent people don't, can't or won't understand that increased wages benefit* everyone, especially the one's with things to sell.

*At least in theory, on an infinite planet.

Thats not how economics works. If Jim has 10 apples and you have 10 dollars then you can agree that the apple is worth 1 dollar and make that exchange, Free market. If someone else besides you wants one of those apples then Jim can increase his price due to demand and get $2/apple and he will in time become a millionaire. Now if we just gave you 20 dollars for no reason, which is what arbitraily increasing wages is then you have tanked the value, not of the apples but of the dollar. There is still only 10 apples but now you have 20 dollars so Jim will make you pay 2 dollars anyways becasue you have twice the money. Its looks like your making more but then you get what called "inflation" and the prices go up you have to pay more because everyone has more money. Even though your earnings went up demand and supply stayed the same so now your money is just worth less not more. Artificial wage increases only hurt the open market. The problem people have with an open market is that it is pure competition and some of us are better at this than others. Whether the less skilled people need protections is a different conversation that doesnt change the economics. "What surprises me is that seemingly intelligent people don't, can't or won't understand that increased wages benefit* everyone, especially the one's with things to sell."


[/Quote]Would be interesting to see just how many of those new millionaires were self-made by providing goods or real service (advertising doesn't count, at least in my opinion), vs how many inherited it vs how many made it in the stock market.


As for the Vanderbilts, Rockefellers, Kennedys (or any other of the ultra-rich of bygone days) each of those cases are individual and, I'd assume, examples of continuing wealthiness amongst certain members of their families can still be found. (I've actually met a Rockefeller and a Kennedy, one when I was in a service industry-type role [windsurfing instructor], and both, at least by gossip, were still plenty rich, at least in comparison to us peons). This is not the place to discuss antitrust laws that broke up such fortunes, but suffice it to say that those laws, along with several other things, allowed the development of the middle class between the 50s and early 80s. For better or worse, the neo-liberal economic policies in place since then have put paid to that 'golden age' and we're headed back into another period of hyper income-equality, and it's not because (it seems to some that) 20% of the workers do 80% of the work (if I were a work-environment analyst, in that situation I'd have a long hard look at such workers primary managers). [/QUOTE]

Daddy Rockefeller died with a fortune of 340 billion. Todays Rcokies are worth about 11 billion. Apperantly adjusting for inflation Daddy Rocky had about 3x the worth of Jeff Bezos. The only time there is periods of income equality is when everyone is broke AF. If you think hyper equality is coming I'd be worried cause that can only mean everyone is at 0.

The whole 20/80 thing is a well know rule of distribution and applys broadly. Look all you like. There are articles that address specifically this principle in the economics and the work force but youll have dig for that yourself.
https://jamesclear.com/the-1-percent-rule
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kevinkr.../#8d02db23814b

[/Quote]The only difference in the 1890s-1920s is that the 'poor' are affluent enough to not starve to death, but are not affluent enough to, say, eat healthy enough to not be a burden to the healthcare systems of their respective countries.

Looks to me to be one of the worst sides of conservatism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tijv_T4BpSc

[/QUOTE]

You cant really compare the 1890-1920 as the world was very different in both. You can eat healthy today. You just have to forgo all the BS extras we have and actually take the time to buy ingrediants and cook a meal. Cant afford to eat real food but you can have an iPhone and starbucks still.I dont buy fast food caue its cheaper, just because its easier. Buy your family fast food everyday becasue its the easiest path is not the same as simply not having access to food. Second, health is far more than what you eat. Its been done many times accross many fitness studies and with all the hair spliting it comes down to calories in vs calories out. You can eat fast food every day if you work out hard enough to burn more calories than you eat. you can look in shape. The health of your organ on the inside are another issue but I'd be more concerned about the insane amount of medication people suddenly need to shovel down as a bigger health issue. Everyone was freaking out over the price of insulin and how its inhumane that people have to pay for it. No one mentions all the money that had to go into research, testing, production, distribution, regulating and an endless amount more. Despite all the work and money other people put in its then decried as a crime that it is sold for money but heres the other thing, Type 2 diabetes is the result of lifestyle choices and is preventable. Type 1 can be genetic but they are the large minorty of diabetics. You dont have a right to medicine you shouldnt have needed becasue of your own life choices.

Comparing medicine today and back then is also silly. The medicine people recieve for free today in any clinic is better than the medicine Rockefeller himself could have paid all of his money for in 1920. The health system is burdened because we tried to take an industry, that was only built to the point its at in this country because of the free market, and try to treat it as a utility that we have a right too. Doctors dont grow on trees, they are educated and trained and that needs to be paid for. The research and development of pharmicuticals need to be paid for. Government doesnt do it because it costs a lot and they cant make anything from. They can only tax you more. This is why countries like the UK buy a very limited selection of medications to offer and they get it from the US becasue we are the ones with a free market to get these drugs made in the first place. They dont just appear. OUr free market creates anything that will sell and governments that try to control the market (which healthcare certainly is) have to rely on other countries to make the advancments because the government cant afford to fund the research and the red tape to even do such a thing......

[sailorboy1]

I grew up dirt poor and started working in one form of another at 7. Had to join the military to find a start to get out out of the rat hole I lived in. Worked hard and took advantage of school and training opportunities. Worked 12+ hours for years to get ahead. Overall spend almost 50 years sacrificing my time and effort to increase my value.

That's "The American Dream"

Don't for one minute think anyone here is going to convince me, for example, that the loser kid flipping burgers at McDonald's "deserves" more pay (based on the times I've been lately they are all overpaid).

People's worth in the real world is directly related to their apply to add value (profit) to an organization.

[sailorboy1]

I have no idea what any of this has to do with You Tubers and boating

[Ndavies]

Well philosophically this is an interesting thread, but I think the "YouTubers" probably represent less than 0.001 percent of camera users. And like it or not - cameras, cell phones drones and all of those technologies that we take as useful or even essential to modern life can also be as annoying as hell! For those YouTubers that have found a way to make a living from it - good on them, and for those who don't want to be filmed - just let them know or stay away.

Personally, I don't think I've ever been anywhere that I've had to avoid YouTubers! I personally use YouTube to document our sailing adventures with the primary intended audience being family and friends. But for the most part, my videos are public. My reason for going public is that I was actually inspired to cruise by some early YouTube vids. And if my videos are useful to anyone else considering it - great!

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

And your assumption that an owner would pay $25/hr for an unskilled worker is pulling numbers out of the air.

It wasn't my assumption. I was referencing a previous post who suggested that's what servers make. I was simply following up. Clear?

Originally Posted by valhalla360

The flaw in your logic is by adding the $6 onto the menu prices when no one else does that is you look too expensive, so people go to other restaurants. It's a psychological trick, people don't calculate the tip until the end of the meal but will often check out the prices on the menu before going in.

It wasn't my logic, it was yours. You stated that no one minds adding $6 (20%) to their typical $30 bill. So once again, I was simply using your calculation. You claim typical servers are therefore making 4(tables)x$6(tip)+$2.35(base)=$26.35/hr. Customers are already paying this amount. Unless you're saying your made up numbers are wrong...

Of course the problem is that faux-tipping has now been institutionalized into the restaurant, and other lower-paid server world. So yes, it's hard for one restaurant to make a change alone. It's hard to roll the stone back up the hill, which is why we need to stop this false tipping from spreading further.

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Obviously, you've never been around the restaurant business if you think most tipped staff report every last penny. It's not that they are less ethical. It's that there is no record of their income for the IRS to verify. They can't claim zero tips but they can hide a good portion.

Everyone cheats a little. You are suggesting wait staff somehow cheat more. This is an insult to servers. Produce your facts or stop making this assertion. I have lived my professional life around people in similar circumstances. They do not cheat (more than others) on their taxes.


P.S. If I missed a point that needs comment, please let me know. You guys are way too prolific. I can't keep up...