Great Lakes Cirmcumnavigation

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

There is no question it could be done in one boating season,

Could not disagree more.
Having a couple of hundred deliveries between Duluth MN, Montreal, Toronto, Chicago etc. plus years of cruising all the Great Lakes, I think it is little more than a fantasy to consider this doable in one season in a vessel that will have a true average SOG of about 2knots unless this is non-stop 24hr/day operation.
I'd love to put some money on this one

PS. I didn't catch the part about taking this boat upstream in the Detroit and St. Clair ...... good luck !

[valhalla360]

Another vote for way too ambitious for 1 summer.

Detroit River isn't too bad (it will be slow upstream). St Clair River under the Blue Water Bridge, we were tucked way to the Canadian side to get out of the current and flat out 7.8kts (STW), we were making 1.5kts (SOG).

There is a solution. Go down the rivers and take the Trent Severn canal back.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Could not disagree more.
Having a couple of hundred deliveries between Duluth MN, Montreal, Toronto, Chicago etc. plus years of cruising all the Great Lakes, I think it is little more than a fantasy to consider this doable in one season in a vessel that will have a true average SOG of about 2knots unless this is non-stop 24hr/day operation.
I'd love to put some money on this one

PS. I didn't catch the part about taking this boat upstream in the Detroit and St. Clair ...... good luck !

Don’t be a ——, taking posts out of context.

The Flicka should be able to average about 3.5 knots. If one travels an average of 6 hours per day that would be 21 miles. In 6 months, that’s 3800 miles. Done. Easily.

In case you didn’t get the thrust of the significant post you extracted one very small portion of, it was that he should plan more time for the trip.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Don’t be a ——, taking posts out of context.

The Flicka should be able to average about 3.5 knots. If one travels an average of 6 hours per day that would be 21 miles. In 6 months, that’s 3800 miles. Done. Easily.

In case you didn’t get the thrust of the significant post you extracted one very small portion of, it was that he should plan more time for the trip.

Rod: Your lack of experience with the Great Lakes is showing. The Flicka may well average 3.5 in ideal conditions however, those ideal conditions will be a very small fraction of the total time for the proposed voyage. 2 over that voyage in all it's varying conditions is much more realistic as a real average over the entire voyage (if nothing else goes wrong).

Have at me Rod as I will not be seeing anymore of your posts. I have just blocked you. I have seen you coming apart at the seams on other threads because someone had the temerity to disagree with you. I choose not to partake in anymore of your meltdowns or childish name calling.

[dangerfield55]

You are trying to cover a lot of territory in a very short period of time. The Macinaw boats got into trouble only because they tried to keep racing. I was on the lake when the last fatality occurred and you knew HOURS before that storm what was coming. Most fronts pass in 20-40 minutes. You could trailer or have a 24 footer towed up the river. It would be a great trip but better spent over several summers.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Rod: Your lack of experience with the Great Lakes is showing. The Flicka may well average 3.5 in ideal conditions however, those ideal conditions will be a very small fraction of the total time for the proposed voyage. 2 over that voyage in all it's varying conditions is much more realistic as a real average over the entire voyage (if nothing else goes wrong).

Have at me Rod as I will not be seeing anymore of your posts. I have just blocked you. I have seen you coming apart at the seams on other threads because someone had the temerity to disagree with you. I choose not to partake in anymore of your meltdowns or childish name calling.

I am quite familiar with the Flicka; a stout boat what likes wind. It has an iron genny if 3 knots to the good can’t be maintained. Again, I recommend not rushing so, but if this is all the time the OP has, it is most certainly doable, by a competent sailor. A lot will be missed, but better to miss a lot than to miss it all, if all he has is one boat season.

[Mike OReilly]

It all depends on the purpose of the journey I suppose. If all you want to do is accomplish some sort of ‘bucket list’ check box, and you’re driven enough and lucky enough, then sure … it’s possible to do the trip. If you actually want to see and experience the Great Lakes in something other than a completely superficial way, then no … it is not possible.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

It all depends on the purpose of the journey I suppose. If all you want to do is accomplish some sort of ‘bucket list’ check box, and you’re driven enough and lucky enough, then sure … it’s possible to do the trip. If you actually want to see and experience the Great Lakes in something other than a completely superficial way, then no … it is not possible.

Personally, I think everyone is being a little harsh. Many do the great loop 6000+ miles, in one year. Yes a Great Lakes circumnavigation in one boat season is very ambitious. I’m sure the OP got this point by about the third post.

But if this is what he wants to do, all the power to him. While he will miss a lot I wouldn’t refer to the feat as “superficial”. In fact, even if he only made it half way, that would be a magnificent accomplishment, most only dream of, never taking the necessary steps to untie the lines at all.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Personally, I think everyone is being a little harsh. Many do the great loop 6000+ miles, in one year. Yes a Great Lakes circumnavigation in one boat season is very ambitious. I’m sure the OP got this point by about the third post.

But if this is what he wants to do, all the power to him. While he will miss a lot I wouldn’t refer to the feat as “superficial”. In fact, even if he only made it half way, that would be a magnificent accomplishment, most only dream of, never taking the necessary steps to untie the lines at all.

And that’s what I said. I call it superficial b/c all the OP is going to do is race around the Lakes, without actually seeing much of anything. Might as well just get in a car and drive around.

I’m sure it’s possible IF the OP is a top-notch sailor AND cruiser. AND he is very lucky. In other words, it is very unlikely.

The great loop and a loop around all the Great Lakes are quite different journeys. Classic apples to oranges comparison.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

And that’s what I said. I call it superficial b/c all the OP is going to do is race around the Lakes, without actually seeing much of anything. Might as well just get in a car and drive around.

I’m sure it’s possible IF the OP is a top-notch sailor AND cruiser. AND he is very lucky. In other words, it is very unlikely.

The great loop and a loop around all the Great Lakes are quite different journeys. Classic apples to oranges comparison.

That’s my point, the great loop is at least six times the distance compared to a Great Lakes circumnavigation. The OP didn’t seem to suggest a circumnavigation of each Lake.l, to be same way a looper doesn’t circumnavigate each individual body of water.

Again, I say, ambitious, not the way I would do it, but if the guy only has one season and his heart set on it, I wouldn’t suggest he not try. Worst thing that could happen is he only gets half way, and if he decides he doesn’t want to take another season, sell the boat and relish the memories of what he did accomplish.

Every sailors plans are written in the sand vs cast in stone.

[30yearslater]

I'm still having questions about the timeline. Considering Superior can remain iced over until mid to late May the starting point becomes critical. Unless of course you have an icebreaker or follow one it may simply be impossible to navigate the big one. Then considering the spring winds are fairly strong and consistent with the waves being in the 4 to 8 foot range and breaking it is a cold wet ride until about mid June. Ontario remained stubbornly in the mid 30s until early June this year. Could it be done, yes, perhaps starting in Ontario and ending in Superior then back. The question then remains why? We're frozen nine months of the year. Only mental defectives live here and find joy in the misery. Of course that does explain a lot at least in my case. A good bash and cold water are guaranteed for at least the start of the journey. Just some stuff to consider.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

That’s my point, the great loop is at least six times the distance compared to a Great Lakes circumnavigation. The OP didn’t seem to suggest a circumnavigation of each Lake.l, to be same way a looper doesn’t circumnavigate each individual body of water.

Need to define Great Lakes Circumnavigation but the Great Loop is no where close to six times the distance by any realistic measure.

We did a fairly direct run from Buffalo to Chicago on the Great Loop and that was around 1000miles. So a return trip by the same route would be 2000 miles but leaves out Lake Superior and Lake Ontario all together. Lake Superior could easily add 1000miles. If you do the full length of all the lakes including return trips, it could easily push 4-5,000miles. If you add the Erie Canal, Trent-Severn or part of the St. Lawrence that could add more miles.

It's one thing to push the early/late season when you are mostly hanging out at the marina and only go out on good days.

Even if we assume your 3.5kt speed, to cover 4,000miles will take 1143hr or about 114 travel days assuming long 10hr days out of roughly a 180 day season (southern parts of great lakes). Possible but really pushing hard traveling pretty much any day there is decent weather and not much time to actually see anything. Particularly in the spring, I could see the sailor being under pressure to go out in poor conditions to meet a very difficult schedule.

If it's a bucket list thing to just check off that you did it, it's possible. If you want to enjoy the trip and the destinations, not so much.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

...If it's a bucket list thing to just check off that you did it, it's possible. If you want to enjoy the trip and the destinations, not so much.

.

Exactly what most people who know something about the Great Lakes are trying to say.

I sure hope the OP has got what he wants. If this really is some sort of extreme-sport or bucket list kinda thing, then it may be possible — assuming high level of skill and a decent amount of luck. But for future readers of this thread, it is close to impossible, and quite likely foolish and dangerous (unless you’re very skilled and very lucky).

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

.

Exactly what most people who know something about the Great Lakes are trying to say.

I sure hope the OP has got what he wants. If this really is some sort of extreme-sport or bucket list kinda thing, then it may be possible — assuming high level of skill and a decent amount of luck. But for future readers of this thread, it is close to impossible, and quite likely foolish and dangerous (unless you’re very skilled and very lucky).

So I just prepared a rough route in Navionics.
Start: Detroit, down to Erie, across Erie, up to Lake Ontario, thru to Trent Severn, up to Georgian Bay, across North Chanel to Superior, loop around Whitefish Bay, down to loop around Northen Michigan, down Huron, back to Detroit = 1500 miles. Add 50% for ins and outs, zigs and zags = 2250 miles.

May 15 to October 15 = 152 days, less 25% lay days and foul weather days = 114 days on the move. 114 days / 2250 miles = 20 miles /day (3 days out of 4).

Ambitious yes; improbability depends on the individual, impossible no.

One would have to be very fit, skilled, and have a sound boat. But if the goal is to sail a continuous loop, and be on all of the Great Lakes in one boat season, it could be done.

I wouldn’t attempt it as I’m not into marathons, but if someone was bound and bent, I wouldn’t tell them it couldn’t be done and give them the chance to prove me wrong. ;-)

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

So I just prepared a rough route in Navionics.
Start: Detroit, down to Erie, across Erie, up to Lake Ontario, thru to Trent Severn, up to Georgian Bay, across North Chanel to Superior, loop around Whitefish Bay, down to loop around Northen Michigan, down Huron, back to Detroit = 1500 miles. Add 50% for ins and outs, zigs and zags = 2250 miles.

May 15 to October 15 = 152 days, less 25% lay days and foul weather days = 114 days on the move. 114 days / 2250 miles = 20 miles /day (3 days out of 4).

Ambitious yes; improbability depends on the individual, impossible no.

One would have to be very fit, skilled, and have a sound boat. But if the goal is to sail a continuous loop, and be on all of the Great Lakes in one boat season, it could be done.

I wouldn’t attempt it as I’m not into marathons, but if someone was bound and bent, I wouldn’t tell them it couldn’t be done and give them the chance to prove me wrong. ;-)

Suddenly you went from 1/6th of the Great Loop to 1/3rd...and you are just touching some of the lakes not doing a circuit of them.

I ran it on Google Earth and came up with:
- 1000 miles to circuit Lake Superior.
- 700 miles to circuit Lake Michigan
- 350 miles Mackinaw to Toledo
- 300 miles Toledo to Buffalo
- 250 miles Welland Canal to Kingston and then the entrance to the Trent Severn
- Trent Severn 240 miles
- Severn to Mackinaw (via north channel) 300 miles

That totals up to 3140 if I did the math right but lets call it 3500 since I ran mostly straight lines to estimate and you have extra miles in and out of harbors.

This doesn't take into account when the wind is on the nose (which it always seems to be) and the sailor is traveling twice as far to make the same distance.

With your ambitious 114 travel days, that means each day you need to average around 9 hours under way. 3 out of 4 days traveling means you have no choice but to travel if the weather is halfway decent. It's not unusual to get a week of bad weather which puts you way behind schedule.

And don't forget when the weather is decent, there is often no wind, so you are motoring. Add a 1/2 hr to go fill the 5 gal outboard tank each of these days.

Also, you didn't account for the locks. Between the Trent-Severn, Welland and the Soo, there are about 50 locks. That can easily add another 30-50hrs under way time depending on what traffic is like.

No one has said it's impossible, just very impractical.

Now if you get a larger boat that can sail/motor comfortably at 6-7kts, it's a whole different ballgame. Now you only need to average around 4-5hrs on a travel day and if you fall behind you can do some 8-10hr runs to make up for weather/repair days. You can comfortably go out in worse conditions You likely have fuel tanks that only need to be topped up every week or two, etc....