UK to Patagonia.....your thoughts?

[svbravo]

We're taking delivery on the new boat shortly. Plans for the coming year+ are starting to gel. Big picture.....France/UK/Norway/Svalbard/Norway/UK/Patagonia.

The idea is to then spend a good length of time exploring the Chilean channels. Preferably do the transit passages down south in or at least around summer. After that, perhaps 6 months, the crystal ball gets hazy, the way our cruising plans typically go.

It's the UK-Patagonia piece that we're trying to figure out. We'll be looking at leaving England in Sept or October.

Option 1:
Our initial thought had been down to head down to Cabo Verde, and depart for Salvador, Brazil in early November. Then, perhaps a quick stop in Buenos Aires, arriving in Ushuaia around New Years. The stops on the South American coast would be brief, clear in, rest up for a bit, and keep heading south.

Option 2:
The next idea is to head across the Atlantic to the Carib, leaving in early Nov. Then quickly head through Panama, say Jan 1. Head to Ecuador (we've really enjoyed Ecuador previously), then on to Rapa Nui and Puerto Montt, hopefully by around mid Feb.

Option 3:
Slow it down.....Similar to Option 2, except for timing.....spend a few months in the Carib and San Blas before transiting the canal. Say leave Las Perlas in May. Then Ecuador, and on to the Gambier for three months, before heading east to Rapa Nui and Puerto Montt.....arriving in say, October.

Pantaenius would not insure Option 1.....due to Brazil and Argentina. Lloyds broker was not keen on Brazil or Argentina either, said they would much prefer the Pacific approach.

What are your thoughts, those who have experience with either route, especially the East coast of South America these days??? Are the reports of violence overblown, or are the insurance carriers acting from experience (yes, I've checked noonsite, but it's always tough to get a picture of %'s who experience problems....we have a few friends who have had good experiences in Brazil).

Thanks for any input.

[svlamorocha]

I have sailed the Eastern coast of South America twice and would be happy to help. Can you please add the most important bit of info: What is your and your crew's sailing experience?

Originally Posted by svbravo

We're taking delivery on the new boat shortly. Plans for the coming year+ are starting to gel. Big picture.....France/UK/Norway/Svalbard/Norway/UK/Patagonia.

The idea is to then spend a good length of time exploring the Chilean channels. Preferably do the transit passages down south in or at least around summer. After that, perhaps 6 months, the crystal ball gets hazy, the way our cruising plans typically go.

It's the UK-Patagonia piece that we're trying to figure out. We'll be looking at leaving England in Sept or October.

Option 1:
Our initial thought had been down to head down to Cabo Verde, and depart for Salvador, Brazil in early November. Then, perhaps a quick stop in Buenos Aires, arriving in Ushuaia around New Years. The stops on the South American coast would be brief, clear in, rest up for a bit, and keep heading south.

Option 2:
The next idea is to head across the Atlantic to the Carib, leaving in early Nov. Then quickly head through Panama, say Jan 1. Head to Ecuador (we've really enjoyed Ecuador previously), then on to Rapa Nui and Puerto Montt, hopefully by around mid Feb.

Option 3:
Slow it down.....Similar to Option 2, except for timing.....spend a few months in the Carib and San Blas before transiting the canal. Say leave Las Perlas in May. Then Ecuador, and on to the Gambier for three months, before heading east to Rapa Nui and Puerto Montt.....arriving in say, October.

Pantaenius would not insure Option 1.....due to Brazil and Argentina. Lloyds broker was not keen on Brazil or Argentina either, said they would much prefer the Pacific approach.

What are your thoughts, those who have experience with either route, especially the East coast of South America these days??? Are the reports of violence overblown, or are the insurance carriers acting from experience (yes, I've checked noonsite, but it's always tough to get a picture of %'s who experience problems....we have a few friends who have had good experiences in Brazil).

Thanks for any input.

[svbravo]

Originally Posted by svlamorocha

I have sailed the Eastern coast of South America twice and would be happy to help. Can you please add the most important bit of info: What is your and your crew's sailing experience?

Sure, and you're right.....that is most important!...my wife and I have been cruising full time in the Pacific on our old boat for the past 9 years.....Seattle, Central America, Ecuador, and then the SoPac, yo-yoing for several years between NZ, Fiji, Tonga, Vanuatu, New Cal, and Oz. Sold that boat in Oz, and now building a new one in France. Along the way we left the boat in Ecuador for 6 months of land travel by bus and backpacks in South America, inc. a few weeks of backpacking in Patagonia.

[svlamorocha]

Great.

Pinguino can tell you all about Chile and Southern Argentina. There is nothing bad in Argentina that he will not know about.

Your earlier post leads me to believe that you are concerned about security for cruiser in Argentina. I suspect you are listening to people who have not been to Argentina much. Bureaucracy is the problem, but not as bad as Ecuador.

Security can be an issue in Brazil North of Angra, but an experienced cruiser can manage. Brazilian bureacracy is comparable to Argentina's.

I have lived much of my life in Argentina but never felt the need to sail South of Buenos Aires. I can help about the part of the trip that is North of BA

Originally Posted by svbravo

Sure, and you're right.....that is most important!...my wife and I have been cruising full time in the Pacific on our old boat for the past 9 years.....Seattle, Central America, Ecuador, and then the SoPac, yo-yoing for several years between NZ, Fiji, Tonga, Vanuatu, New Cal, and Oz. Sold that boat in Oz, and now building a new one in France. Along the way we left the boat in Ecuador for 6 months of land travel by bus and backpacks in South America, inc. a few weeks of backpacking in Patagonia.

[Breaking Waves]

We have approached Patagonia from both directions . . . .

Have you got the "Italian guide" to Patagonia (eg Patagonia and Tierra del Fuego Nautical Guide Mariolina Rolfo & Giorgio Ardrizzi.) it is essential and will give you a ton of information.

One key point of information is that it is way way easier and more fun to go south down the channels than to go north. This is true for two reasons. first it is like 85% headwinds going north (and similarily following winds going south), and second, starting in puerto montt and going south you ease into it and figure it out in smaller steps. While starting in the south you dive right into the deep end.

To balance that, the Pacific approach is a bit more difficult than the Atlantic approach. In the Atlantic, you just head down the coast, the winds will typically be from the shore so if you stay reasonably close inshore you have no fetch and can blast along smoothly even in very strong winds. There are some sections (in southern Argentina) where there are some decent gaps between good harbors but it is all pretty straightforward until you get right to the bottom, where it because challenging. Personally I would make landfall after cape Verdes in Uruguay rather than Brazil.

(it sounds like you are aware of this . . . ) In the Pacific, you really don't want to go down the coast, because that is upwind usually into a nasty chop. It is best to come from the southern Tuamotus (or we came from the Australs) and head directly to Puerto Montt. That is more offshore work, and more exposed work than the Atlantic approach.

A key question is if you are only going to transit the channels one way - in which case I would advise the pacific and having the nice run south in the channels. But if you are going to perhaps do two channel transits then you are going to go north sometime, and there is an argument for approaching from the Atlantic then.

As to security . . . yea there are some issues, but in our experience, the yachts were protected. Just be careful travelling ashore - dont walk into the wrong place at the wrong time ashore. There were some small 'riots' in mar del plata when we were there but they stayed away from the boats. But it is not terrible - not a reason to avoid it.

Patagonia is our single favorite cruising location in the world . . . . but it is tough love and you will step up your game there.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by svlamorocha

Great.

Pinguino can tell you all about Chile and Southern Argentina. There is nothing bad in Argentina that he will not know about.
......

Har Har .. my BA wounds are slowly starting to heal... its only taken nine and a half years..........

As to the Atlantic..... I have one full plus two 1/2 trips on that side.
The two halves were a late departure (April) from BA to Ushuaia... ended up offshore from Pto Deseado in a SWly gale with sleet and no sign of improvement for a cupla weeks.... turned tail and ran back to Mar del Plata.
NB from all reports I have received there is nothing desirable about Deseado and most avoid it.
The other trips were from Piriapolis ( my suggested stop in the Rio de la Plata area - enter into RG at Mar del Plata) in November to the Falklands ... a dream run. Also Punta Arenas direct to Mar del Plata in May... also a dream run apart from one blow just south of MdP. Three trips back and forth between FI and PW in Sept to November range... all good.
Most I have met in Chile have coasted down from the MdP area in Nov/Dec and seem to enjoy the trip.

On the Pacific side you can go via Rapa Nui... in April we are planning direct EC to Valdivia by the offshore route... watch this space.... we may still enter at Anto. Most coming down from Rapa Nui seem to have a rather hard time of it.... possibly by trying to go through the middle of the high rather than skirting its western edge.
Quite do-able inshore especially in a larger boat by entering at either Iquique or Antofagasta and then day sailing south or just motoring... I've known a number of people do that... one of them several times. The sea breezes and the circulation around the high join forces offshore from Coquimbo and it seems to always blow quite hard thereabouts.
This blog may be of interest.... they did Chile, RG and Brasil... https://www.sailblogs.com/member/sequitur/156150

The channels... I've done the southern channels in all months except July... southbound in the summer is fine... northbound autumn ( ie April dept from Williams) or late winter ( sept dept ) are the best.

PS Avoid Peru!!

[Hardhead]

Joshua Slocum has some interesting historical reading concerning those cruising grounds. It's where I learned about williwaws... make sure you have a good anchor and chain. Kelp was also an issue for him way back then. I've always wanted to cruise there myself - should be an unforgettable trip.

[JorgeD]

If you decide to sail to Uruguay, I would suggest Piriapolis as a nice stop over. There are no security issues in Uruguay, Argentina or Brazil that I am aware of, but Custom and Immigration offices are friendlier in Uruguay.
If you need more information, feel free to contact me.

[svbravo]

Originally Posted by svlamorocha

Great.

Your earlier post leads me to believe that you are concerned about security for cruiser in Argentina. I suspect you are listening to people who have not been to Argentina much. Bureaucracy is the problem, but not as bad as Ecuador.

Security can be an issue in Brazil North of Angra, but an experienced cruiser can manage. Brazilian bureacracy is comparable to Argentina's.

I have lived much of my life in Argentina but never felt the need to sail South of Buenos Aires. I can help about the part of the trip that is North of BA

Thanks for this, LaMorocha. I tend to believe that as you do about concerns of security...certainly it's just not something that we typically let rule our lives. Everywhere we've cruised or traveled, be it Mexico, Central America, or Asia, people have been nothing but friendly toward us. We're not naive, but do try to keep our eyes open and use common sense.

And you're so right about the bureaucracy of Ecuador.....it was legendary, though we thoroughly enjoyed our time there.

If we wind up heading down the South American east coast, I'll certainly pick your brain for more info.....cheers!

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

nothing desirable about Deseado

we went into Puerto San Julian. We were the first yacht there in a long while - none of the officials had seen one before. My wife had 'historical' interests there (if I remember both Drake and Magellan put down mutiny's there - there was a headland called hangman's point where the mutineers were hanged.

It was ok. Decent protection, but the wind sure did whip overhead. A bit tricky to get into with shifting sand bars and some current, but not too difficult with care. The officials were very kind.

[svbravo]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

We have approached Patagonia from both directions . . . .

Have you got the "Italian guide" to Patagonia (eg Patagonia and Tierra del Fuego Nautical Guide Mariolina Rolfo & Giorgio Ardrizzi.) it is essential and will give you a ton of information.

One key point of information is that it is way way easier and more fun to go south down the channels than to go north. This is true for two reasons. first it is like 85% headwinds going north (and similarily following winds going south), and second, starting in puerto montt and going south you ease into it and figure it out in smaller steps. While starting in the south you dive right into the deep end.

To balance that, the Pacific approach is a bit more difficult than the Atlantic approach. In the Atlantic, you just head down the coast, the winds will typically be from the shore so if you stay reasonably close inshore you have no fetch and can blast along smoothly even in very strong winds. There are some sections (in southern Argentina) where there are some decent gaps between good harbors but it is all pretty straightforward until you get right to the bottom, where it because challenging. Personally I would make landfall after cape Verdes in Uruguay rather than Brazil.

(it sounds like you are aware of this . . . ) In the Pacific, you really don't want to go down the coast, because that is upwind usually into a nasty chop. It is best to come from the southern Tuamotus (or we came from the Australs) and head directly to Puerto Montt. That is more offshore work, and more exposed work than the Atlantic approach.

A key question is if you are only going to transit the channels one way - in which case I would advise the pacific and having the nice run south in the channels. But if you are going to perhaps do two channel transits then you are going to go north sometime, and there is an argument for approaching from the Atlantic then.

As to security . . . yea there are some issues, but in our experience, the yachts were protected. Just be careful travelling ashore - dont walk into the wrong place at the wrong time ashore. There were some small 'riots' in mar del plata when we were there but they stayed away from the boats. But it is not terrible - not a reason to avoid it.

Patagonia is our single favorite cruising location in the world . . . . but it is tough love and you will step up your game there.

Wow, many thanks for this, Breaking Waves. I really appreciate your thoughtful analysis, just what I was hoping for. I think at this point we're leaning toward "Option 3"....slow things down after returning from this summer's trip up to Svalbard. Enjoy winter in the Carib, then on to French Poly, before heading from Gambier to Chile in, say, Oct 2021. Idea would be to likely do a one way, mostly downwind cruise south, so I really think this makes the most sense.

Haven't yet bought the Italian guide, was waiting till we get to UK to pick it up. I've leafed through it.....looks excellent, and I see there's a 3rd edition out.


Thanks again, I'm sure I'll be back to bug you as we get closer...

[svbravo]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

On the Pacific side you can go via Rapa Nui... in April we are planning direct EC to Valdivia by the offshore route... watch this space.... we may still enter at Anto. Most coming down from Rapa Nui seem to have a rather hard time of it.... possibly by trying to go through the middle of the high rather than skirting its western edge.
Quite do-able inshore especially in a larger boat by entering at either Iquique or Antofagasta and then day sailing south or just motoring... I've known a number of people do that... one of them several times. The sea breezes and the circulation around the high join forces offshore from Coquimbo and it seems to always blow quite hard thereabouts.
This blog may be of interest.... they did Chile, RG and Brasil... https://www.sailblogs.com/member/sequitur/156150

The channels... I've done the southern channels in all months except July... southbound in the summer is fine... northbound autumn ( ie April dept from Williams) or late winter ( sept dept ) are the best.

PS Avoid Peru!!

This is excellent, Ping. I hadn't known about this inshore route. Likely avoids the worst of the Humbolt current. Is it a "one toe on the beach" trip, or can you stay a relaxing distance offshore? How about fish boat traffic close in to the coast?


Many thanks for the input, your experience down there is always welcome. Will be back in touch as we get closer to it....cheers!

[svbravo]

Originally Posted by JorgeD

If you decide to sail to Uruguay, I would suggest Piriapolis as a nice stop over. There are no security issues in Uruguay, Argentina or Brazil that I am aware of, but Custom and Immigration offices are friendlier in Uruguay.
If you need more information, feel free to contact me.

Thanks for this, Jorge. Very helpful. I'll definitely consider Uruguay if we take the Atlantic route! And I'll definitely hit you up for more local knowledge if we head down your way. Cheers

[Paul Howard]

I will give you our experience of our passages to Patagonia:
We went out the St. Lawrence Seaway to Labrador in June, July, on to Iceland and the Faroe Islands and to Scotland, through the Caledonian Canal and to Ireland in August/September. Reasonable weather that far, minor gales. Left Ireland October, many gales already setting up to Force 10, sailed direct to La Corona, Spain, then cruising along the coast of Spain and Portugal and on to Casablanca, Morocco. Left for Las Palmas mid-December, with nasty gale, hove-to for a couple days.

Spent Christmas and New Year's in Las Palmas and left soon after for Praia, Cabo Verde and on to Cabedello, Brazil. Cruised the Brazil Coast, spending a few months, especially in Santos area. Strong gale from Rio Grande de Sur, Brazil, to Uruguay, as it was winter and cold.
Arrived Buenos Aires in November and stayed for a couple months in the area, eventually left the boat in San Fernando and flew home for a while.
Sailed to Mar del Plata, stopped in Puerto Deseado and on to Puerto Williams, Chile, arriving in mid-December. Spent the next 11months between Chile and Argentina along the Beagle Channel and went around Cape Horn. The following November we sailed to the Falkland Islands, caught in a nasty gale. After a month there, sailed to Mar del Plata and on to Piriapolis, Uruguay and hauled the boat to do some work. Sailed direct to Rio de Janeiro, then direct to Forteleza, Brazil. From Forteleza sailed direct to Bermuda, then to Sandy Hook, New York.

It was a great trip.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by svbravo

This is excellent, Ping. I hadn't known about this inshore route. Likely avoids the worst of the Humbolt current. Is it a "one toe on the beach" trip, or can you stay a relaxing distance offshore? How about fish boat traffic close in to the coast?


Many thanks for the input, your experience down there is always welcome. Will be back in touch as we get closer to it....cheers!

The people I know who have come down the coast have typicaly done it in larger boats... over 40 foot... easier to motor into a bit of a slop than something smaller that may hobby horse... so you should have no probs there.
They have also, in the main, had enough fuel to avoid stopping in Peru.

That said my experience so far is in going north, twice from Montt to Antofagasta, once to Valpo and only once south - from Iquique to Anto. Twice had northerlies in the Talcahuano area, twice had the freshest southerly winds offshore from Coquimbo. Twice cleared out of Anto bound NW- ish and had to motor for 4 days or so looking for wind.

Fishing boats.... on the way to Ecuador we kept about 150 miles offshore from Peru. That kept us inshore of the asian fishing boats working outside the 200 mile limit... offshore of the Peruvian boats. Only saw any fishing boats when we crossed into Ecuadorian waters and started to close the land.

Peru/Humbolt current wasn't much in evidence last October and we had quite a bit of counter current. If coasting south I would stay close inshore - not rock hopping - and work the seabreezes - moving in the late evening when they die down and knocking off the following afternoon when they crank up again.

I land cruised down the Atacama coast last November , there seem to be plenty of anchorages sheltered from the southerlies.

PS there is a new edition of the Chilean Chart Atlas due out in a few months.... you don't need to buy one until you get to Chile.