Best place in U.S. to learn sailing/sailboats for ~1 year before sailing away?

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

BTW - unlike a lot of people here I never sailed till I was 48 years old and I have been a member here from before then. I only got into sailing to cruise, not to be a sailor. The OP wants to cruise!

This is about right. Whenever topics like this come up on CF, there's a chorus who talk about sailing, classes, starting small, etc. As if all you have to do to successfully cruise is learn to sail. Sailing and seamanship skills come in batches as people need the skills - I know a lot of people who started with a 45-foot cat and figured it out with some hands-on instruction along the way. Of the handful of cruisers I've met who cut their cruising short, none did so because they couldn't figure out how to sail. CF contributors love to talk about love of being under sail which is great. Cruisers I meet talk about destinations and the people they meet. To the extent they discuss sailing, it's because of particularly lousy weather they were caught in.

[Ruso]

The BEST answer so far. Great perspective Carl!
The most challenging part is to come to agreement between you and your wife on what you can and you want. Start with it. The rest is easy.

Originally Posted by CarlF

Don't move yet. It's exhausting to sell and pack up your house. Instead:

1) From now until October get on some boats and talk to their owners. This is remarkabley easy. Fly or drive for a weekend to several place where there are lots of cruisers, go to a maraina and look for a boat with the owner (or better couple) "puttering". Introduce yourselve and say you are thinking of buying a cruising boat and theirs is one you're considering (it helps if you read up on the popular cruising boats so you can at least appear semi-intelligent).It doesn't hurt to bring some beer but not necessary. Most cruisers love to talk about their boat and how it's worked out for them. They'll talk your ear off. In most cases you'll be invited aboard within 15 minutes. What you are trying to do is find people "like you" who are enjoying cruising. Take advantage of their experience. You can also get an idea of different areas and even marinas you might like.

2) In mid October go to the Annapolis Sailboat show. This week long show is full of cruisers. They even run a unversity where cruisers talk about all the things you need to know about. Walk around the docks looking at the new boats and listening to what the other attendees are saying. Try to strike up converstations with couples that "look like you". Try to make new cruising friends. It's amazing how open cruisers are to new friends. Make up some "boat cards" with your name picture, email, phone to hand out. Once you have a boat, make new cards with a picture of the boat and her name.

3) During next winter charter a boat in the Bahamas or Caribbean. I'd do it 2 or 3 times. Pick charter boats owned by a couple who like to teach new cruisers. They aren't hard to find. It's really important to get the wive's perspective as much as the husband. What they agree on and what they don't agree on.

4) After the charters you'll have answered a couple of really important questions 1) Do either of you get badly seasick? About 20% of couples find that one or the other just gets too seasick to enjoy the life. It's fine to get a little seasick but if you dread a rough day then this isn't for you. 2) See how much you like living in a small boat. It's more comfortable than tent camping but only a little bit.

5) Along the way, consider your budget. Buying the boat is the easy part. The challenge is the extra $50,000-$100,000 it will take to make the boat one you'd want to live on. So take your budget and subtract $100k and that's the boat you can buy. You'll probably have to go a bit smaller than you first planned. Don't consider a "fixer upper" - it will break you. And look for a boat that is being cruised now by a couple you like. They will have equilped it for cruising. Don't get frozen looking for the "perfect" boat. Very few cruisers stick with the first boat they buy.

6) By next Spring you'll have narrowed the boat you want to about six. Start traveling to look at them. Keep making cruising friends.

7) "Liability Only" is probably not the best plan for a new cruiser putting a lot of their assets into a boat. At the Annapolis Boat Show you can learn all about the ins and outs of insurance. You can also start getting a feel for good marina slip options.

8) Don't refer to yourself as "live aboard". To many marinas that means a boat that never goes anywhere. You are a cruiser. Always go in person to talk to a marina. See if you like the people living there. Don't have crying kids or a large dog along. Make it clear to the marina manager that you are getting a very nice boat and have the money to maintain it. The marina doesn't have to worry that you will someday disapear or stop paying your slip bill. Many people keep a boat in a marina for 6 months and cruise for 6 months (and if you can afford it, I'd keep your current house - or downsize to a condo). It's nice to go see old friends and family. 12 months on a boat is not easy.

9) By this point you'll probably feel ready to buy the boat. Plan to stay close to your marina for at least six months. There will be lots of stuff to do - like new foam for the mattrsses because your back hurts when you sleep on it - or a better head that doesn't feel like an 19 century experiment. Take short "shake down" trips to gain confidence.

10) I'd recommend that your first long cruise be to The Bahamas for 3 months. It's real cruising but easy to run back to Florida if you have serious boat problems. Then consider going to NE (especially Maine) the next summer during hurricane season. By the time you get back from that you will be ready to teach new cruisers!

11) I've sailed in NE for over 50 years. It's wonderful but the season is too short for what you plan. July and August are the only really wonderful weather months. And it is wonderful - no air conditioning needed! By Sepember you have to start south or you risk getting trapped in NE for the winter. The Chesapeake has a much longer season but it's miserably hot July-September. It's no fun to sit in a marina slip to be plugged in for air conditioning. What we've done for 10 years is Bahamas in the winter, Maine in the Summer and Spring/Falll in our Boston condo and moving the boat on the ICW (be sure your boat's mast is not taller than 63' so you can get under 65' ICW bridges). It's worked out great. After a few years you can decide if you want to head for the Carribean or even Europe - but that's not today's problem. In many cases you'll get a new boat before leaving.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by Ruso

The BEST answer so far. Great perspective Carl!.

How do you figure? OP wanted input on a location to jump in asap. In the wall of text, wait a year or more and spend $30k on charters before making a decision.

[sailorboy1]

Charters, talk about a waste of money far as learning to sail and cruise!

[Ruso]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

How do you figure? OP wanted input on a location to jump in asap. In the wall of text, wait a year or more and spend $30k on charters before making a decision.

The money were not a subject in OP. May be $30K is not big spending if your buy budget is half mil.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

The thing about that is all the money you spend on your "starter" boat is money that could have gone into your real boat.

I started with a 39' boat. Knew in 3 months it wasn't the boat for us. All it taught us was that we should have gotten a bigger boat to start with. All it took as a 2' longer different type of boat.

Pretty only old sailors turned cruisers started with small boats. Based on my experience the last 8 years is that each year more and more cruisers did not start with small boats, especially the younger cruisers.

I don't really care what boat people get in the end. I just say if you want to be a cruiser take a cruiser learning route. If you want to be a salior type a different route.

I learned to sail on Oday 39' club boat. When it came time to buy I wanted that size. My saiiling buddy who I was going to be partners with backed out since his then gf wouldn't be cqught dead sailing. So I ended up with a 27footer which became my "learning boat" really. Can say it was the right decision as I wouldn't have enough ownership experience to get the right boat back then (2006). But 4 years later I got the right boat for me all around - a 36 footer. And since I view my cruising future more realistically today than I did 15-20 years ago it is perfect for my now and near future purposes.

[Foswick]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Whenever topics like this come up on CF, there's a chorus who talk about sailing, classes, starting small, etc. As if all you have to do to successfully cruise is learn to sail.

I think you miss the point of such advice. If you are not a competent sailor, you are not a cruiser. At best, you are a liveaboard who happens to move the boat, from time to time. That's OK, but the OP was talking about adventure, not marina living.

The advice of starting small and learning to sail is so the person can make good choices and avoid wasting time and money. I would argue that if you can't find joy in the process of building the skills and knowledge, sailing a variety of boats along the way, then the lifestyle might not be for you.

If a person is starting from little to no experience, it is likely a 2-year process, regardless of how one goes about it. It just depends on where you want to make your mistakes. Experienced sailors and cruisers pretty universally agree that it is better to make those mistakes on smaller and less expensive boats.

Of course, if you jump right in, you might get lucky, but probably not. And, most who go that route fail.

I say it's a 2-year process. For those who jump right in, that learning period might be less apparent. But, you pay that time one way or another. And, I think the cost is generally about the same - you pay now or pay later.

Most agree that it is safer and less stressful to take a graduated/incremental approach. Some read this as "boring", but again, if this process is boring, then cruising probably isn't for you. There is no such thing as boring sailing, only boring people who sail.

[Whiz-Bang]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

This is about right. Whenever topics like this come up on CF, there's a chorus who talk about sailing, classes, starting small, etc. As if all you have to do to successfully cruise is learn to sail. Sailing and seamanship skills come in batches as people need the skills - I know a lot of people who started with a 45-foot cat and figured it out with some hands-on instruction along the way. Of the handful of cruisers I've met who cut their cruising short, none did so because they couldn't figure out how to sail. CF contributors love to talk about love of being under sail which is great. Cruisers I meet talk about destinations and the people they meet. To the extent they discuss sailing, it's because of particularly lousy weather they were caught in.

This is our experience as well.

As to the original question, we started in Jacksonville and it worked out well. Good marinas and community, sailing instructors, Lake Jacksonville to practice on, access to ICW. The best thing about it were other liveaboards who were generous with their knowledge. So much of cruising is boat maintenance, not sailing. Another option to consider is Charleston. Find a marina that's friendly to cruisers.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by Foswick

I think you miss the point of such advice. If you are not a competent sailor, you are not a cruiser. At best, you are a liveaboard who happens to move the boat, from time to time. That's OK, but the OP was talking about adventure, not marina living.

The advice of starting small and learning to sail is so the person can make good choices and avoid wasting time and money. I would argue that if you can't find joy in the process of building the skills and knowledge, sailing a variety of boats along the way, then the lifestyle might not be for you.

If a person is starting from little to no experience, it is likely a 2-year process, regardless of how one goes about it. It just depends on where you want to make your mistakes. Experienced sailors and cruisers pretty universally agree that it is better to make those mistakes on smaller and less expensive boats.

Of course, if you jump right in, you might get lucky, but probably not. And, most who go that route fail.

I say it's a 2-year process. For those who jump right in, that learning period might be less apparent. But, you pay that time one way or another. And, I think the cost is generally about the same - you pay now or pay later.

Most agree that it is safer and less stressful to take a graduated/incremental approach. Some read this as "boring", but again, if this process is boring, then cruising probably isn't for you. There is no such thing as boring sailing, only boring people who sail.

Bunk. CF choir have one answer to every newbie question. Start small, start young. spend years, develop your sailing skills and eventually you'll be worthy. To listen to the keyboard armada (CF), it's the only way. That's BS. Plenty of folks have successfully jumped into the deep end. Gone With the Wynn's being a good example, but there are many others.

The OP asked a decent question - and received some decent answers. But they also received a bunch of condescending unsolicited advice.

[Eyeswideorange]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

How do you figure? OP wanted input on a location to jump in asap. In the wall of text, wait a year or more and spend $30k on charters before making a decision.

OP here. Interesting to see the diverse views on this topic. Hopefully these different perspectives will help someone -- they're clearly well-informed! -- but indeed we're looking to move in August 2024. Now planning on Chesapeake Bay Area (thanks, Kettlewell!)! We have a unique window now in our relatively-young lives due to some recent changing circumstances, and we're going to seize it.

Concerning budget, we are mostly inspired by the budget liveaboards who keep things simple, fix their own boats, and have limited trinkets/luxuries. We have a $60-80k budget all in -- definitely not unlimited money but we think it'll give us a great, humble, decent-sized "viable long-term" cruiser. We also have very good handyman skills and restoration abilities, and we think we'll enjoy that part (and enjoy keeping repair costs down). We're reading books & CF discussions, watching tons of YouTube videos, talking to people with experience, doing everything we can think of to make the most informed decisions possible -- especially on a tighter timeline. We will visit lots of boats until something feels/looks/is right. And, of course, we will then put all our effort into learning to sail our boat, cruise, and explore the surrounding areas -- while fixing up the boat, as needed. The goal is to liveaboard full-time starting in ~1 year but we're definitely willing to reassess if we're not ready for whatever reason. We just want to get to the business of doing what we know we want now while we have the freedom, health, and ambition.

Again, I appreciate seeing the full spectrum of possibilities for cruisers/liveaboards. This advice is invaluable to consider, even if I don't follow all of it!

[Foswick]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Bunk. CF choir have one answer to every newbie question. Start small, start young. spend years, develop your sailing skills and eventually you'll be worthy. To listen to the keyboard armada (CF), it's the only way. That's BS. Plenty of folks have successfully jumped into the deep end. Gone With the Wynn's being a good example, but there are many others.

The OP asked a decent question - and received some decent answers. But they also received a bunch of condescending unsolicited advice.

I'm sorry this upsets you.

I don't think any advice in this thread was condescending, nor was it unsolicited.

Here's why I think it is irresponsible to tell someone to jump right in:

If they have the attitude, circumstances, and disposition to make this work, it won't matter what I tell them - they will jump right in anyway. If they are dissuaded by a few voices of experience, they probably lack the requisite demeanor to make it work.

Yet, if a person is inclined to listen to voices of experience, it is best to offer it to them so they can be prepared and integrate that advice into their plans.

Sure, as I said, people make this work with no experience. But, way more often, those people fail when they encounter reality they didn't foresee.

The advice to start small is not unique to CF. This is what nearly every cruiser or sailor with any real experience will tell you. And, to validate this attitude, you will rarely find anyone who started small say, "Gee, I wish I had just bought a big boat and skipped all of the experience." Yet, you will find plenty of people who did jump in who say, "In retrospect, I should have done this differently."

I get that some people dive in and don't regret having done so. But, for every one of those, there are dozens of people who failed or otherwise regret their approach.

[Kettlewell]

Now planning on Chesapeake Bay Area

Great place to learn! Friendly people, tons of boats, boatyards, marinas, and places to go. Lots of real sailors and cruisers. Try to get up to New England in the summer for some more comfortable weather!

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by Eyeswideorange

Concerning budget, we are mostly inspired by the budget liveaboards who keep things simple, fix their own boats, and have limited trinkets/luxuries. We have a $60-80k budget all in -- definitely not unlimited money but we think it'll give us a great, humble, decent-sized "viable long-term" cruiser. We also have very good handyman skills and restoration abilities, and we think we'll enjoy that part (and enjoy keeping repair costs down). We're reading books & CF discussions, watching tons of YouTube videos, talking to people with experience, doing everything we can think of to make the most informed decisions possible -- especially on a tighter timeline. We will visit lots of boats until something feels/looks/is right. And, of course, we will then put all our effort into learning to sail our boat, cruise, and explore the surrounding areas -- while fixing up the boat, as needed. The goal is to liveaboard full-time starting in ~1 year but we're definitely willing to reassess if we're not ready for whatever reason. We just want to get to the business of doing what we know we want now while we have the freedom, health, and ambition.

Again, I appreciate seeing the full spectrum of possibilities for cruisers/liveaboards. This advice is invaluable to consider, even if I don't follow all of it!

well that is the standard dream

I wonder what you think the price of that cruising is. And by that I mean all in and not with "not counting" items that still come out of your bak account.

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

well that is the standard dream

I wonder what you think the price of that cruising is. And by that I mean all in and not with "not counting" items that still come out of your bak account.

Hi, eyeswideorange,

If you click on SB1's screen name, you will see a "find more posts by sailorboy1" in the menu of options. SB1 was responsible for a popular series of threads relative to the actual costs he and his wife had while they were cruising actively. You might be interested to take a look at them.

Jim and I sailed his Yankee 30 from SF Bay to HI, and return. That voyage taught us that we wanted a different boat for a long term cruising background, and we wound up with a 36 footer, which was stiffer, and faster overall. The Yankee was Jim's 4th boat, 2nd cruising boat. When people counsel you to start smal , they generally suggest the boat be something like a Catalina 22, 27 or 30, which you should be able to sell for about what you paid for it. It is a big 30 footer, and the 22 is a trailer-sailer, light, responsive, and would teach you the sailing part. If you just buy the first boat you see that makes your hearts go pitty-pat, I suspect that you'll learn to sail it, accept what you can't change about it, and follow your tight schedule. What I've seen over time is that if you start small, you'll learn a lot more about sail trim, in particular, than most people who start big. The start small policy does matter to its proponents because they share the anchorages with you and your skill level matters to them, and they have to deal with the gaps in experience. It isn't elitism, but it can sure seem to be. It is not something that the start big proponents are likely to be aware of. You have a choice, it is you two who need to be pleased.

Another piece of advice Mike OReilly is fond of giving is to buy as small as you think you can tolerate. This helps you keep it simple, and things like berthing fees and haulout charges down. In many areas it makes quite a lot of difference.

Ann

PS for mvweebles: I can't think how many times we've been asked, "Strike any bad weather?" I guess many people think fatiguing is adventuresome.

Ann

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by Foswick

I'm sorry this upsets you.

I don't think any advice in this thread was condescending, nor was it unsolicited.

Here's why I think it is irresponsible to tell someone to jump right in:

If they have the attitude, circumstances, and disposition to make this work, it won't matter what I tell them - they will jump right in anyway. If they are dissuaded by a few voices of experience, they probably lack the requisite demeanor to make it work.

Yet, if a person is inclined to listen to voices of experience, it is best to offer it to them so they can be prepared and integrate that advice into their plans.

Sure, as I said, people make this work with no experience. But, way more often, those people fail when they encounter reality they didn't foresee.

The advice to start small is not unique to CF. This is what nearly every cruiser or sailor with any real experience will tell you. And, to validate this attitude, you will rarely find anyone who started small say, "Gee, I wish I had just bought a big boat and skipped all of the experience." Yet, you will find plenty of people who did jump in who say, "In retrospect, I should have done this differently."

I get that some people dive in and don't regret having done so. But, for every one of those, there are dozens of people who failed or otherwise regret their approach.

Starting small and building up is one way to do it, and seems to be the only way CF community approves. It's a good way to go if you have the time and you're not Jonesing to travel which the OP has clearly expressed. Meaning, you love to sail and want to do the club circuit stuff and the desire to cruise grows over time. Nothing wrong with that, but to suggest is the only way is hogwash, especially since it wasn't the OPs question. Some folks just want to get on with it - as a reminder, it's the female half of the couple writing the OP, somewhat unusual in itself. I've met plenty of experienced sailors who washed out cruising - clearly going the start-small route is no guarantee. On the flip side. I've met a LOT of people who, in their 40s, 50s, and even 60s had the "honey, let's buy a boat" revelation, bought a large boat, and are doing just fine.

The issue I have with the classic CF guidance is the underlying assumption is the newbie will somehow just buy the boat then toss docklines to French Polynesia a week later after provisioning. That's not how they do it. They learn in increments and realize their in over their heads, and figure out how for learn what they need to know - which is exactly the path the OP has outlined. So they build their skills as they go, and make more modest treks.

There's a big difference between "here's how I did it and it worked for me" and "I know better and here's how you should do it." Latter is condescending and invariably how CF elite present themselves. It's condescending. Sorry, but it is. Again, that wasn't the OPs question.