Help 100 Live Aboard Sailors Keep Their Homes By Offering Feedback on Mooring Field

[Cheyne]

Well normally you pay for a moorning ball. Sometimes by the day, week, month or anually. How about we do the the same for anchoring in Miami Beach, but shoot make it free, but you have to provide reciepts for pump outs. No reciepts no free permit. Also ban the use of more than one anchor. I saw one with 4 anchors out. The boat was a horders paradise.

[ekelly36]

I applaud them, 45 day limit, charge for the dinghy dock, if a boat is anchored longer than that then they get a fine, and every day its anchored fines add up, if they dont pay the fines after 30 days the boat gets confiscated to be auctioned or to be crushed.... public waterway should be for public use, not for storage. sounds like a CAT 5 needs to roll through to clean out some of the abandoned boats. (Strictly from an outsider looking in)

[CaptTom]

Originally Posted by mikeod

For those who think a 45 day limit every 6 months is ok. What about boats stored on moorings should it be the same to open up space for others?...

You make some good points. Certainly mooring regulations can be bad, too. Submerged lands are a public trust, and the states are obligated to manage them for the benefit of all.

Sometimes, moorings can be a workable compromise. In a busy harbor, where anchoring is difficult or there isn't enough room for all who want to use it, they can benefit everyone. In working harbors, priority often goes to those with water-based businesses, like commercial fishing. Next in line are usually waterfront land owners, then other residents. In some places these fill up pretty quickly with recreational boats, and waiting lists develop.

In a perfect world, some moorings will be reserved for transient cruisers. And the only way to limit overuse or abuse is to charge a fee. Fair enough.

Unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world. Municipalities (who often assign the moorings) get greedy. Locals have more political clout than cruisers.

What's worse, this not only applies to busy harbors where people need to keep boats on moorings as a "home base." In Maine, towns will hand out "destination" moorings in remote anchorages, forever preventing anyone from anchoring there. These aren't used as a home base for recreational or commercial boats, but often only a few weekends a year.

So, yeah, I cringe when I hear about a new mooring field going in. I'd much rater see time limits. And 45 days is far too generous, IMHO. But I know that mooring fields can be done right, and sometimes it's the only option.

[Cloroxbottle]

Originally Posted by wgerstmyer

>Landowners that choose to live near the public water are not guaranteed their views as part of their land ownership.

It is similar to people who move and live near an airport and then complain about airplane noise. If you don't want to see boats, move to New Mexico or Nevada.

[TravelingLike21]

Originally Posted by BlueH2Obound

CSG, I have read this thread, as well as your other 30 posts. 27 of those posts were on two threads dealing with the same identical issue.

I am a details kind of guy.

When I read someone posts, and they state things like the first quote above in red, but your profile states you joined in June of 2022 . . . . less than two years ago . . It brings up doubts . . . . . Maybe you were a member previously? Makes me wonder if you got booted off the forum . . . and why?. . . .

And when called out on whether or not you started this thread, and you were wrong . . . . ,

And you keep bringing up unrelated items to defend your position . . . .
Your credibility isn't too great to the casual observer.

I checked your profile under the heading "Friends", and it states "CanuckSailorguy has not made any friends yet" . . . . Hmmmm, makes you think, doesn't it?

As a new member here, the assertions made here about CanuckSailorGuy trouble me. I haven't made any friends yet and really don't care if I do or don't. I'm here for a variety of reasons. I have been in and out of forums depending on my interests at the time. No one has ever challenged my reasons for posting or not posting or suggested I was kicked off.

I'm off to send a friend request to CanuckSailorguy.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by TravelingLike21

As a new member here, the assertions made here about CanuckSailorGuy trouble me. I haven't made any friends yet and really don't care if I do or don't. I'm here for a variety of reasons. I have been in and out of forums depending on my interests at the time. No one has ever challenged my reasons for posting or not posting or suggested I was kicked off.

I'm off to send a friend request to CanuckSailorguy.

Well, you must not have read the whole thread. CanuckSailorGuy joined with an axe to grind and mis-represented himself (herself?). They have declared themselves sailors even though they don't sail - note, they are pissed-off because they don't want to move their boat 1 mile every 45-days. Not a lot of sympathy from constituency of "CruisersForum."

If that troubles you, send them money - they have a GoFundMe setup asking for money to hire lawyers to fight the local government to whom they pay no taxes.

[CaptTom]

Originally Posted by TravelingLike21

As a new member here, the assertions made here about CanuckSailorGuy trouble me. I haven't made any friends yet and really don't care if I do or don't. I'm here for a variety of reasons. I have been in and out of forums depending on my interests at the time. No one has ever challenged my reasons for posting or not posting or suggested I was kicked off.

I'm off to send a friend request to CanuckSailorguy.

Welcome!

I, too, frequent a few forums, and I've been involved in this sort of thing since the days of Compuserve and AOL.

This is one of the more friendly forums I've seen, and a big part of why I've hung around so long.

But, like any place people gather, we get some who want to share, some who want to learn and a few who just want to convince others to join their cause.

The OP was the latter. And that's fine, we all do what we can to support good causes.

But as the discussion evolved, and we all learned more, we found that the "cause" was something which would harm far more people than it would help, especially those actually cruising. Note this is a "cruising" forum.

Squatters living aboard permanently in what used to be an anchorage which was free for cruisers and locals alike are only making it harder for the rest of us. Trying to compare themselves to true cruisers only brings the wrath of the locals, which the squatters earned, upon all of us.

For the record, I have known good people who live aboard boats in anchorages like this. Some I would consider friends. But that doesn't change the reality of the situation. Too many living like that, in the wrong places, does cause problems. It's a classic "Tragedy of the Commons" situation.

[CanuckSailorguy]

Thank you... friend request accepted!

Originally Posted by TravelingLike21

As a new member here, the assertions made here about CanuckSailorGuy trouble me. I haven't made any friends yet and really don't care if I do or don't. I'm here for a variety of reasons. I have been in and out of forums depending on my interests at the time. No one has ever challenged my reasons for posting or not posting or suggested I was kicked off.

I'm off to send a friend request to CanuckSailorguy.

[CanuckSailorguy]

You DO jump to conclusions don't you? And wrong ones too.
I probably sail considerably more than you do, and have been full time cruising for over 20 years now. I don't misrepresent myself, and I find your insulting manners to be far too typical of too many people here. That's sad, this was at one time years ago one of the best forums around.
As for locals in FL moving their boats every 45 days, there are actually really good reasons for that not being a good idea in the bigger scheme of things. I won't trouble you with an explanation, you already clearly know everything you need to know from what I see of you here.

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Well, you must not have read the whole thread. CanuckSailorGuy joined with an axe to grind and mis-represented himself (herself?). They have declared themselves sailors even though they don't sail - note, they are pissed-off because they don't want to move their boat 1 mile every 45-days. Not a lot of sympathy from constituency of "CruisersForum."

If that troubles you, send them money - they have a GoFundMe setup asking for money to hire lawyers to fight the local government to whom they pay no taxes.

[CanuckSailorguy]

yup, you're an outsider looking in and it shows.

Originally Posted by ekelly36

I applaud them, 45 day limit, charge for the dinghy dock, if a boat is anchored longer than that then they get a fine, and every day its anchored fines add up, if they dont pay the fines after 30 days the boat gets confiscated to be auctioned or to be crushed.... public waterway should be for public use, not for storage. sounds like a CAT 5 needs to roll through to clean out some of the abandoned boats. (Strictly from an outsider looking in)

[CanuckSailorguy]

The mooring field for MB which is in the planning stages now mandates a pump out boat.

Originally Posted by Cheyne

Well normally you pay for a moorning ball. Sometimes by the day, week, month or anually. How about we do the the same for anchoring in Miami Beach, but shoot make it free, but you have to provide reciepts for pump outs. No reciepts no free permit. Also ban the use of more than one anchor. I saw one with 4 anchors out. The boat was a horders paradise.

[CanuckSailorguy]

I have a very good working relationship with the Pinellas County Sheriff's Dept. so let's debunk your remarks.
First of all, liveaboard is a very specific legal term in FL, referenced in §327.60. You should inform yourself before commenting, and wrongly commenting I would add.
Local municipalities are not authorized to create local ordinances for anchoring - §327.60 (2)(f). PCSD used to enforce those local ordinances until I pointed out to them that it was illegal to do so, at which time they discontinued that enforcement.
Sheriff Gualtieri makes excellent use of the Propulsion test to remove problem boats. And as for the Air BnB issues, since those boats are commercial, 327.60 does not apply and they can be regulated.
What YOU don't see, despite your constant harping here, is that the rules are in place to deal with the problems. It's just that you don't want the anchor outs.
Like way too many Floridians, you have your piece of paradise, everyone else can just F off as far as you're concerned.
As for you're constant commenting on moving every few months - long term liveaboards set up multiple anchoring systems at great cost in both time and money. Those setups are proof against storm winds up to hurricane force - to have to remove and reinstall them every 45 days defeats the purpose and would only contribute to MORE boats destroyed in storms, not fewer.
Now you know.

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Again, these are laws pertaining to derelict vessels, not long term anchor-outs, many of which are on the contuum of derelict (from your link, a derelict vessel is "Wrecked, junked, or in substantially dismantled condition").

In my neck of the woods (near Clearwater Beach on the ICW), the Pinellas County SHeriff's office patrols the ICW. I happened to be in the audience when they briefed the City Council on why they were powerless against the long-term anchor-out community. Yes, they enforce anchor-light requirements, and yes, they inspect heads. And yes there is a law against being a liveaboard ---- but it hinges on the definition of "liveaboard" in the Florida State statutes. The definition is easily skirted by simply saying "Oh, I don't live on my boat - I have another address." In four years, the Sheriff's office had never successfully used the statute preventing liveaboards. Heck, in a nearby jurisdiction, one enterprising guy would buy near derelict boats for $1 and barely fix them up and rent them on AirBNB. Many of the anchor-outs are comfortable in the murky loopholes of laws and ordnances.

So I ask again - what are the laws that will limit long-term anchor-outs, the folks who don't want to move so much as 1-mile every couple months?

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by CanuckSailorguy

I probably sail considerably more than you do, and have been full time cruising for over 20 years now. .

Well, I went from San Diego to Guatemala this year (2500 miles) and will go from there to Florida via the Panama Canal next year. I spent 5 years as a full time delivery skipper with over 225 days per year underway. So if you want to compare credentials, feel free.

I'd love to hear why its okay to be offended at regulations that require an anchor out to move their boat 8 miles per year. And why you deserve sympathy and support (and money) because you are so offended thst you must sue the local government to avoid moving your boat 8 miles per year. Why you are so entitled that you want unfettered use of public facilities for which you pay $0 taxes.

Feel free to educate us neanderthals who use our boats. Feel free to describe why we should have sympathy for those who want their homes (not boats) protected. Good luck with that.

[CanuckSailorguy]

First of all, the majority of people living aboard are not "squatters". Most of them have jobs, many have property ashore, but they prefer to live aboard.
Very few are actually, to quote you, dealing with "homelessness, drug addiction and mental illness".
Most of the ones I know are cruisers taking a break, or working to earn money to go cruising again.
But it must be very nice to be so wealthy and so sanctimonious, which is what I take from your comments. I would try it but for my gag reflex.

Originally Posted by CaptTom

Since this thread became active again, I happened to re-read and reflect on the thread title.

Hmmm. They want me to help them keep their "homes"?

Maybe this will help. I'll explain how I kept my home:

I bought a run-down old house I could afford, a half-hour drive from where I worked. I took out a 30-year mortgage, since paid off. I rebuilt virtually every part of it over the years, mostly working alone. Some parts multiple times. All the while trying to live and raise a family in it. I've paid property taxes. I've paid insurance and utility bills.

Now, someone wants me to help them stake a claim to a small patch of public waterways, where they can live for free, preventing me and other cruisers from ever being able to stop there while exercising our right to navigation in the waterways.

Sorry, I know it's a nuanced issue and I respect all the other points of view on this. I feel the pain of homelessness, drug addiction and mental illness. Maybe I'm just feeling crotchety today.

But I can't see any way to justify squatters using the word "homes."

[CanuckSailorguy]

You don't know what you're talking about. The process to remove a boat in FL is much simpler than what you have described and as of this July 1, will become simpler still with the passage of HB 487.
Your community of Madeira Beach was breaking the law about local anchoring ordinances for the longest time. I put a stop to that, I'm pleased to tell you.
And like most of the complainers here, you have NO clue what the laws are in Florida, including not knowing what the legal definition of a liveaboard is.
There are laws to deal with unregistered boats, including their removal. If your community and local law enforcement don't understand them, that's not the boat's, or boaters', fault.
And if someone wants to live on their boat, that's NO business of yours. You don't own the water. It's there for all to use.
You might own a boat, but I'm certainly glad you don't use it anywhere near where I am.

Originally Posted by mvweebles

It takes years to clear-out derelict boats. Even in a state such as Florida, the process to seize a boat is difficult. Individual notices, then public notices, court judgements, then removal requires budgeting and bidding before award. The entire process is expensive and time consuming. And that's if the boat has been truly abandoned without anyone to argue otherwise. Last year in my community of Madeira Beach (I live inland and not on the ICW), the town of 4000 residents spent almost $200k to remove 8 abandoned boats, a couple had been washed up on the beach for over a year. Even citing unregistered boats is a problem - the owner claims they are not a liveaboard and gives some sort of bogus address. Sure, law enforcement could track them down and prove otherwise, but what a waste of time - even more public resources being expended simply because someone wants to call their boat a home and not move.

Kettlewell, I appreciate your many posts. But I think you're misguided on this one. I respect your opinion, but not sure you've thought this one through. These are not bohemian sailors your advocating for. They are squatters each trying to defend their squatters rights.