Help me understand my boat's name - norwegian

[Astrid]

@Csy Man, you had the right idea going from a cold climate to a warm one. I went from a cold climate to a cold climate--but then my excuse was I was only 11 and didn't have a choice where my parents chose to go.

Ásta

[Alan Mighty]

Originally Posted by rognvald

"PS Norwegian is but a corrupted dialect of Danish ;-)" TrientePieds

T,
Sorry to disappoint all you Danes, but all the Norsk languages(Swedish, Norweigan, Danish, Icelandic) are a derivation of West Germanic languages.

I will not buy into the argument that Norwegian is derived or largely derived from Danish, other to wonder why Norwegian would not be strongly influenced by Danish if the Kingdom of the Danes included Norway for a jolly long time.

Let's focus on the OP's question.

And note that 'pile' was used in Old English (from about the year 1000) through to at least Middle English (around 1300 - 1400 give or take a few years) to mean 'an arrow'. The word also was used for a spike, a nail, the sharp pointy end of a spear, the shaft of a dart or arrow, and so on.

And the root of it seems to lie in Latin pilum, the javelin used by Roman infantry.

Older Latin had pilum as what we today would call a pestle, a club held in the hand for crushing (as 'when the pestle goes mortar', to quote from the lyrics of the immortal Frank Zappa).

From contact with the sharp end of the pilum in the hands of a Roman soldier or three, descendants of the word show up in lots of European languages: pil, pijl, pila, pfeil, pfil, and so on.

Getting stuck with the pointy bit of the thing held by Roman soldiers in their hundreds seems to have displaced and replaced local words for arrow, spike, etc.

For that matter, cruisers speaking English use cognates of the word most every day: the piston in an engine, the piston in piston hanks, the pile to which you tie up to in a harbour, or the pile that holds the floating walkways and pontoons of a marina in place. All descendants of Latin pilum (and its proto-Indo-European roots of *pis, *peys, to crush).

Stick them with the pointy bit or crush them with the blunt bit, it's much the same.

[robwilk37]

pelin is a fairly common first name for a girl/woman in turkey...

[Steve Bean]

Latin for arrow is "sagitta." The constellation Sagittarius is "The Archer." I knew a boat named "Sagitta."

[TrentePieds]

Quote: " Das ist sicher nicht wahr!"

Aber nein! Es ist ganz bestimmt wahr! I think you got your punctuation gibbled. I'm sure what you meant to say is: "Das ist sicher, nicht wahr?"

Your assertion that the Scowegian languages are derived from West Germanic is not quite on the mark. Scowegian is NORTH Germanic, and this group of languages consists of Danish, Norwegian, Swedish, Icelandic and Faroese.

The WEST Germanic group of languages consists of English, Dutch, Frisian, Flemish, Plattdeutsch, Afrikaans and High German. Afrikaans is but an antique for of Dutch, so bear that in mind since there was no Zuidafrika at the time we are discussing and there was therefore no Afrikaans as a distinct language.

When Astrid's forebears settled Iceland a thousand years ago, they spoke what was spoken in Western Norway. That was a dialect of Danish, because the sundry bands of Norsemen that lived by "the Western Ocean", were closely related, and had plenty of social intercourse with each other. The families ("slægter" = clans) were often related by marriage as a means of creating political alliances. The Norsemen who settled in Scania (Southern Sweden) also spoke a dialect of Danish, because Scania (Skåne) was an intrinsic part of the Kingdom of Denmark. The dialects spoken by the groups mentioned were mutually intelligible. Further north in Sweden the dialects were sufficiently differentiated from the Danish dialects of the time that they were NOT understood directly by other Norsemen.

The West Germanic languages mentioned above were ALSO mutually intelligible a thousand years ago, but they were NOT directly intelligible by Norsemen.

Norway was part of the Kingdom of Denmark until very recent times. 1814, if memory serves. "Country dialects" throughout this part of "Norden" (including my own childhood dialect from the Island of Funen) differed greatly phonemically, but were mutually intelligible although occasionally it took some effort. The grammars of these languages were identical for all intents and purposes. Upon Norway's independence from Denmark, "Norwegian" evolved in two ways: Into nynorsk ("New" Norwegian), which was a conscious [self-conscious :-)] effort to create "product differentiation", as was reflected in a drastic modification of the orthography, and "bokmål" ("bookish", i.e. academic or "educated", Norwegian) which remained closer to Danish. Both nynorsk and bokmål are perfectly intelligible by speakers of Danish.

Danish itself has also evolved, of course. I find that in the 60 years I've been away, Danish has evolved from a language to a throat disease :-)! I usually bring up Queen Maggie's New Years address to the nation, just for fun, and I've had to conclude, listening to current Danish broadcasts, that there are but two people in the entire world that speak proper Danish any more. And that's Maggie and me :-)!

Så værs'go og spis ;-)!

TP

[CSY Man]

Originally Posted by Astrid

@Csy Man, you had the right idea going from a cold climate to a warm one. I went from a cold climate to a cold climate--but then my excuse was I was only 11 and didn't have a choice where my parents chose to go.

Ásta

Aye Astrid, I screwed up at first: Emmigrated from Norway to Alaska.
No sunshine or palmtress on the tundra in January.
During a vacation to St. Croix in 1984 I saw the light however, ditched my return ticket and lived on a sailboat shortly thereafter.

As for evolution of languages: It is my understanding that Icelandic is the same language spoken in Norway 1000 years ago.
I had a girlfriend on Iceland eons ago and we could not understand each other, but communicated in English, except for one word, she kept calling me vettlause.

Norway was part of the Kingdom of Denmark until very recent times.

Sure enough, both Denmark and Sweden have lusted over, waged wars, ruled over and had unions with Norway, popular place I guess.
Fortunately we were able to ditch the rulers and go independent long time ago.
Now there is a matter of re-claiming land that was lost to the imperialists a few hundred years ago.
Come to think of it, North America has been a Norwegian colony since 2013 AD, time to make it official and plant the flag. Move over Columbus, you were late to the party.

[Vortec]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Så værs'go og spis ;-)!

TP

OT! - sorry

Ja velbekomme hr. "tredivefod"!

Interesting language discussion. On a motorcycle trip to Scotland, I talked with Ingrid - a guide at Highland Park Distillery on Orkney Island - and she said her name was of Viking origin.

A couple of years ago I purchased a sloop named L'interdit from a Frenchman. It means "forbidden" but when "googling" the name, the only result was a perfume brand from Paris.

Does anybody know the sense ?

Pierre (of Denmark)

[TrentePieds]

Quote: "During a vacation to St. Croix"

Ah, yes - the USVirgins! They were a Danish colony from the 1670s until 1917 when Denmark sold the entire 135 square miles of the three islands to the US for a sum - $25M - that would, if you are lucky, buy three single family houses on, say, Chancellor Boulevard in present-day's Vancouver :-)

In consequence of Dansk Vestindiske Øer having been the source of sugar for so many years, the formal word for all sorts of now common groceries, not just sugar, is "kolonivarer" ("colonial wares").

There was up until the sale of the islands a pattern to life in the southern part of the island, Funen, whence I came, an island that was in days gone by renowned for its prosperous farms. After the harvest, young men would ship out for "Vestindien" in local vessels to fetch home a cargo of sugar. There was just enough time over the winter to reach the islands and return home before the sowing had to be done in the spring. The vessels were relatively small, mainly brigantines, though there were also a few ships and the odd topsl schooner, and they were crewed by men who either were part of the same family, large families with a dozen children then being very common, or who were friends already because they were part of a small tightly knit society. Young Danes were loath to ship in foreign ships, particularly in English ones, knowing from experience that the harsh treatment meeted out in English ships was quite unnecessary. German ships were rather better, it was said, although there also, the treatment and the food were quite inferior to that in the "family run" Danish ships.

Until I came here I had only ever seen one black man - a man who'd come from St.Thomas. He was a postman. In those days the "work dress" of the "Kongenlige Post" (Royal Mail) in the cities was a uniform not unlike the present day dress uniform of the RCMP: Red serge tunic, Prussian blue trousers with a yellow stripe, black forage cap with badge. The man was absolutely resplendent as he delivered letters door to door :-)

TP

[rognvald]

"Quote: " Das ist sicher nicht wahr!"

Aber nein! Es ist ganz bestimmt wahr! I think you got your punctuation gibbled. I'm sure what you meant to say is: "Das ist sicher, nicht wahr?"
Triente Pieds

Herr Pieds,
In regards to the above quote, you are absolutely correct. I would beg forgiveness and blame it on the "Devil's Brew"--Russian Standard Platinum.
Simply stated, the early Germanic tribes of the 1st Century AD spread throughout Europe and settled in all directions. This created the local dialects: North, Western, etc. Now with the advent of DNA, the guesswork has been replaced with factual evidence. In regards to Norwegians, it has been found that " The scientists studied Norwegians' maternal and paternal lineages using DNA technology. Overall, Norwegians are genetically similar to Germans. They concluded, for instance, that the mtDNA haplogroup J, found among 10% of Norwegians, was probably "brought by the Germanic migrations to Norway." They also showed that 75% of Norwegian men have one of the Y-DNA haplotypes Eu7 and Eu18, which are both common in Germany." It further states:"Their research shows that Norwegians are nearest to Germans and Dutch by genetic distance, followed closely behind by Danes, then Swedes, then English. These data are reportedly on page 270 in the table "Occidental/European genetic distances for reference purposes". This information can be found at:Norwegian Genetics - DNA of the people of Norway Isn't it interesting to have these little diversions? Good luck and safe sailing.

[TrentePieds]

Now why would a namesake of the Earl of More be indulging in vodka, when akvavit is freely available? But let it go - let us perhaps hoist a yard of mead as was the custom in Gimle :-)

There has NEVER been any dispute that Scowegians and Germans are closely related, an opinion of old now vindicated by DNA studies. Nor has there ever been any dispute that you know "where you are at" by looking to see who is there with you. Now, as I look around me in Scowegia and listen to the peoples' speech, I find that the definite article is SUF-fixed to the noun to which it relates, but when I look around me in Germany, Holland, Schleswig-Holstein, etc, etc. (even in Zuidafrika), I find that the definite article is PRE-fixed to the noun to which it relates.

And THAT, sehr gelehrte, sehr geehrte Herr, is how you know who is NORTH german and who is is WEST german :-)

Oh, by the way, while we are dealing with that distinction, the honorific "Mr." is spelled with a single "r" in Scowegian (North Germanic) and with "double r" in German (West German). But given the length of time I've been in "the colonies" I've grown quite happy to let the honorific go :-)!

For further evidence that the distinction twixt West and North Germans is linguistic only, hark back to the legendary German hero Siegfried, he of Wagnerian fame. He has a Danish twin brother, actually an alter ego, who resides in the crypt under Kronborg Castle (Elsinore Caste where Shakespeare picked up the Hamlet theme). He is known as "Holger Danske ("Holger the Dane") and is said to wake and gird himself for battle when Denmark is in peril. Fat lot of good that did Denmark when faced with that bizarre little Austrian corporal back in 1940. But I imagine there might have been some illicit, pre-internet communication twixt the opposing "powers". After all, truth is the first casualty of war :-)!

Such incidents notwithstanding, there is no doubt whatsoever that Denmark, and Scowegia generally, is part of das deutsche Kulturgebiet. Unlike Germany, Denmark, however, escaped the consequences of being ruled by aberrant members of Queen Vicky's bloodline, since Denmark's King Christian IX was a contributor to it rather than a victim of it. King Chris was known as "Europe's Father in Law because he had a magnificent crop of daughters, some of them rather pretty, that he married off to almost every Royal House of the time - sort o of the last 40 years of the 19th century.

Willy II of Prussia was one consequence of that, but if you drag me into those realms, we'll have to have a discussion of Alfred Thayer Mahan's momentous ruminations on the source of imperial power. And we wouldn't want that, would we :-)?

Wie immer,

TP

[Astrid]

"A couple of years ago I purchased a sloop named L'interdit from a Frenchman. It means "forbidden" but when "googling" the name, the only result was a perfume brand from Paris.

Does anybody know the sense ?

Pierre (of Denmark)"

L'interdit also has the meaning of interdiction--as in to interdict a hostile country's trade routes. What a fine name that would have been for a French privateer!

[Astrid]

As for evolution of languages: It is my understanding that Icelandic is the same language spoken in Norway 1000 years ago.
I had a girlfriend on Iceland eons ago and we could not understand each other, but communicated in English,

Old Icelandic indeed is a western dialect of Old Norse, but since then there have been many changes in pronunciation and additional new words. Still, modern Icelandic is close enough to Old Icelandic for Icelanders to be able to read the old eddas. In its development, Icelandic was relatively unaffected by changes in language like in Denmark, Norway, and Sweden, so it and Faroese remain rather more archaic and therefore not so intelligible to native speakers of Modern Danish and Norwegian. It is rather like trying to listen to or read Old English--some words are familiar, but others are completely incomprehensible.

[rognvald]

"he is known as "Holger Danske ("Holger the Dane") and is said to wake and gird himself for battle when Denmark is in peril. Fat lot of good that did Denmark when faced with that bizarre little Austrian corporal back in 1940. "
Triente Pieds

"Fat lot of good that did" for all of Europe as Adolph swept with his ferocious, efficient Blitzkreig across Europe. However, us thankless Yanks and our British brothers changed the course of the war forever on June 6, 1944(for the historically illiterate among us . . . that's D-Day).

"Such incidents notwithstanding, there is no doubt whatsoever that Denmark, and Scowegia generally, is part of das deutsche Kulturgebiet."
Triente Pieds

So now, Herr Pieds, I must correct your German . . .do you not mean "is part of the Deutsche Kulturarbeit rather than Kulturgebiet???" I do not know your word in German but Kulturarbeit--roughly translated as "Germanic Culture" is what you meant. . . but it is more than Germanic Culture . . . is Germanisches Blut . . as has been confirmed by exhaustive studies in contemporary European DNA. Perhaps this freedom of speech may be considered heresy in 21st Century politically correct Europe and America. The thought police are always lurking. Good luck and tasty Rouladen . . . Captain Rognvald

[CSY Man]

Originally Posted by Astrid

Old Icelandic indeed is a western dialect of Old Norse, but since then there have been many changes in pronunciation and additional new words. Still, modern Icelandic is close enough to Old Icelandic for Icelanders to be able to read the old eddas. In its development, Icelandic was relatively unaffected by changes in language like in Denmark, Norway, and Sweden, so it and Faroese remain rather more archaic and therefore not so intelligible to native speakers of Modern Danish and Norwegian. It is rather like trying to listen to or read Old English--some words are familiar, but others are completely incomprehensible.

Yup, Iceland is still "pure" as far as language and DNA.
Not sure if there is inbreeding going on, but hoping not.
Norway is being invaded from third world countries in Africa and the Middle East.
Most of the New residents and citizens don't want to learn the language, intergrate, or work. They see us soft liberal Scandinavians as a global ATM machine ready to support 3 wife's and 12 children, for life.

[Astrid]

Originally Posted by CSY Man

Yup, Iceland is still "pure" as far as language and DNA.
Not sure if there is inbreeding going, but hoping not.
Norway is being invaded from third world countries in Africa and the Middle East.
Most of the New residents and citizens don't want to learn the language, intergrate, or work. They see us soft liberal Scandinavians as a global ATM machine ready to support 3 wife's and 12 children, for life.

Funny you should mention that. With a population of only around 400,000 everyone is at least slightly related to everyone else. There is even an APP you can consult on your phone to check out the guy or gal you just met at the bar and are thinking about going home with and see if you might be first cousins. It's called ÍslendingaApp and goes back to grandparents. The motto is bump your phones before you bump in bed.