Liveaboards at the gate

[SeaRags]

Originally Posted by lestersails

I appreciate the underlying sentiment of your post, but am afraid it is not quite so simple. The polemics in this post are quite remarkable. The critics of lives-boards cite well-justified examples of derelict liveaboards that are fouling the water and appalling for all to see. The liveaboards cite their good behavior as exemplars of how reasonable they are and that the landowners are rich, selfish jerks. Both are true and you can find examples of each. The problem is really a hard one - how do you separate these and address them appropriately?

I admittedly only have a limited perspective. But it seems there can be reasonable rules applied that would prevent those derelict liveaboards without completely banning anchoring in certain areas to responsible liveaboards. The original post sounded like there was a certain elitist mentality amongst coastal communities and also those more fortunate to be able to live in marinas full time. You can make a few simple laws to force them to be less "appalling".

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by sailjumanji

Yep, we own it. Our subdivision of canals and marina/boat basin was dredged out of privately-owned land. If you look on the County records, we own the submerged land that extends 30 ft from our bulkhead. Some own 25 ft, some development units own 60 ft. And we pay taxes on our lot, including what is submerged. For that, we also get to build docks, slip boats, etc. in our owned space.
...
It is obviously free to be navigated by anyone, but the submerged land is private. So as I understand it, once you drop the anchor, you are trespassing. And every boat that I have seen anchored in the basin, is asked to leave by either the Coast Guard or Fish and Wildlife within a matter of hours.

Once the canal you dredged is connected to navigable waterways it becomes a navigable waterway, and anyone can now anchor there. You cannot "tresspass" by anchoring in navigable waterways. Unless your title is written before the constitution was written, no one owns "submerged land" below the high water mark.

[Buzzman]

Originally Posted by Harv1941

I lived for four years on a 54 foot Bluewater Aft Cabin Motor Yacht. Property Tax? Had none, my yacht was Coast Guard Documented and was exempt from the property tax in Virginia, Maryland and the District of Columbia. This was due to the Documented status of my yacht. We berthed our yacht in the DC Waterfront at the Capital Yacht Club Marina and maintained our membership for over four years in that facility. We were legal residents at that time of DC and has been residents of Virginia for some 25 years prior to the purchase of our yacht.

Sooo, let me get this straight. You were legally resident in DC, but chose to hide this 'legality' on your boat registration in order to avoid paying DC property taxes...???

Pot calling the kettle black, isn't it?

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

Once the canal you dredged is connected to navigable waterways it becomes a navigable waterway, and anyone can now anchor there. You cannot "tresspass" by anchoring in navigable waterways. Unless your title is written before the constitution was written, no one owns "submerged land" below the high water mark.

I don't understand the legalese. I know that the County still lists private ownership on their rolls, and the few boats over the years that have anchored in the basin have been asked to leave. The latest was about a month ago, and was both ticketed by Fish and Game for no registration sticker, as well as asked to leave. And he did. (I was trying to help him find an alternative anchorage in the area.) I didn't ask him what reason they gave, but just presumed private property.

Also, I don't have a State or Fed lease on the 30 by 100 ft of submerged land behind my house, but am able to install docks, pilings, and a lift to my choosing (albeit must have HOA approval). Same goes for the other 300 lots. If we didn't own this?

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by SeaRags

I admittedly only have a limited perspective. But it seems there can be reasonable rules applied that would prevent those derelict liveaboards without completely banning anchoring in certain areas to responsible liveaboards. The original post sounded like there was a certain elitist mentality amongst coastal communities and also those more fortunate to be able to live in marinas full time. You can make a few simple laws to force them to be less "appalling".

Agree with you 100%

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by sailjumanji

I didn't ask him what reason they gave, but just presumed private property.

Could it be possible that the rationale was that his anchoring interfered with navigation of that waterway? Legitimate or not, that might allow them to scare them off.

[mattiejo]

I do understand a home owners concern over a derelict boat left to rot away, but seeing a well kept boat anchored for the evening or a few days creates a very peaceful scene

[Tonali99]

Originally Posted by capn_billl

The State of Florida does NOT adequately enforce registration laws as the floating derelict cities AKA waterworld attest.

Last week one of these floating wrecks with a broken mast that hasn't moved in over the 6 months I watched it, broke loose, and came within 5 ft of crashing into MY boat tied to a paid dock.

These same floating wrecks yelled at me for trying to anchor any where near (at least 10 boat lengths, I wanted as far away as possible myself).

I felt bad until I saw them screaming at each other with law enforcement called in several times.

Several are half, (or all) sunk, and NONE of them have any observed markings, or current registration stickers.

I'm not trying to be an elitist here, and I'm the last person to call out for more taxes, but tell me the difference between this, and living in an abandoned van on blocks in the back of a public park?

There have been several laws proposed to fix this, but they all seem to want to ban recreational boating altogether instead of fixing a specific problem.

I've boated up, and down the Gulf coast, but I've only seen thing this bad in Florida.

SO the other States haave a solution.

One solution is in Texas, you can be ticketed on the boat ramp, or trailering down the road, and definitely when anchored in Texas waters.

You can be ticketed for dumping, or littering, and they can drop dye tabs in your tank.

The only anchored "liveaboards" on the Texas coast are transient cruisers that cause little issue, and usually spend at least some time at a paid marina.

So why can't Florida pass a common sense law that bans being a public menace without trying to ban anchoring completely?

*
You're talking Florida here right? Common sense? Really?

[Kolchac]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Where did this happen?t to the topic. Some human behavioural studies have found that wealthy people tend to be more selfish, entitled, and generally less empathetic. Work by Dan Ariely, Dacher Keltner and Paul Piff come to mind. Here's one discussion paper posted at the World Economic Forum (so not some commie-pinko perspective):

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/...s-explain-why/

That is a very interesting point: “the rich people are generally bad guys, they became rich at our expenses and better they do not exist”. Actually, I know a country, where such ideas became law. In that country taxi drivers make money twice as much as medical doctors, engineers pay full monthly salary to buy women’s winter shoes, if some crazy guys decided to open a small workshop for tires changes, they would get in prison because private enterprise is a criminal lawsuit.

I was living aboard max for 2-3 months between my contracts, but I was sailing and mooring/anchoring max for 3 days at the same place. I have never had any such*problems but have an idea of what it*could*be. I'm not against people who live aboard, but I do not know what they do with their garbage, and I definitely*know how they discharge the head.*
*

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Kolchac

That is a very interesting point: “the rich people are generally bad guys, they became rich at our expenses and better they do not exist”.

It is interesting Kolchac. But to clarify just a little, the research I cited doesn't say anything about how people might become richer at others expense. It does find that all of us are susceptible to this 'richer-than-the-other-person' effect.

The research indicates that it's not that rich people are born more selfish. It's that all of us, given the right circumstances of wealth disparity, can become more selfish and entitled. As I say, since many cruisers venture into lesser developed areas where we are the wealthy one, this is a finding we should all take note of.

[Caleb_Grey]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

World Economic Forum (so not some commie-pinko perspective):

Lol
You're right, they are much much worse.

[Gerrit Coetzee]

Originally Posted by sailjumanji

Hmmm, our property taxes don't support sewage treatment plants or garbage collection. We are billed for those monthly, by those utility entities.

The overwhelming majority of our property taxes goes to schools, which I guess live aboards don't have school age kids? Oh, but wait, neither do we.

The issue is always someone wants to anchor wherever they want, have shore access wherever - including the ability to tie up their dinghy for as long as they want. A place to dispose of their trash, unless live aboards don't generate any? Pump out sewage is generally "free". Oh, and some want to have a place to park their car for free. And all with no time limit imposed.

Liveaboards in marinas or mooring fields pay for all of these services via their monthly lease. Certainly no property owner has an issue with that, nor for transient anchoring for short to moderate lengths of time. It's the "I want to put my floating apartment here forever, and you need to provide me services for free" that gets the liveaboard a bad name.

Not so sure you are all correct. In St.Thomas we were moored on a mooring ball. This was at Turquoise Bay. Moored there with our 45' Sea Ray.

In a mooring field! There were no other vessels, because it is not the best protected cove for easterly currents, but beautiful.

The Coconut Club at Ritz Carlton Hotel, came to us and asked us to leave, as they don't want any boats in the bay.

Nothing about taxes, school kids, crowded parking spots, rubbish removal!

Your argument fails.

[Gerrit Coetzee]

Originally Posted by Kolchac

That is a very interesting point: “the rich people are generally bad guys, they became rich at our expenses and better they do not exist”. Actually, I know a country, where such ideas became law. In that country taxi drivers make money twice as much as medical doctors, engineers pay full monthly salary to buy women’s winter shoes, if some crazy guys decided to open a small workshop for tires changes, they would get in prison because private enterprise is a criminal lawsuit.

I was living aboard max for 2-3 months between my contracts, but I was sailing and mooring/anchoring max for 3 days at the same place. I have never had any such*problems but have an idea of what it*could*be. I'm not against people who live aboard, but I do not know what they do with their garbage, and I definitely*know how they discharge the head.*
*

What is it with people and the revolt against head discharge? All of sealife excrement in the very same water, and the same people have no problem with that.

A multitude of municipalities around the world dump sewerage in the sea, and people at exclusive beaches swim a mile further away.

In Redhook we would witness sharksuckers gulping away whenever there was a head discharge. Sewage never to see again, except when the sharksuckers excrement again.

Then you have all the gritters like grabs, lobster and shellfish that lives off excrement- natural cleaners of the oceans - until they excrement too.

Not to mention that on a biological scale, salt neutralises acids in both urine and excrement. And there is more salt to go around then the potty flushes going off in a mooring.

Dive into the ocean and witness a head flush. In seconds it dissipate into nothingness. (It was a rare occasion for me to see a floater drifting in the sea, as heads disseminate excrement).

Yet we are happy to drink desalinated water, albeit filtered, that are coming from fish infused excrement.

There are many more fish in the sea than the 12million boats on the water, of which liveaboards form a fraction!!!

A mountain is made out of nothing.

[Gerrit Coetzee]

Originally Posted by mattiejo

I do understand a home owners concern over a derelict boat left to rot away, but seeing a well kept boat anchored for the evening or a few days creates a very peaceful scene

I agree.

It is serenity in the making.

Must say that derelict boats are the opposite, it is a strain on the eyes.

Howabout same laws for derelict boats as for derelict cars? If it is not seaworthy, have it removed.

Boats are expensive and a derelict boat is a clear sign that the owner cannot maintain it.

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by Gerrit Coetzee

Not so sure you are all correct. In St.Thomas we were moored on a mooring ball. This was at Turquoise Bay. Moored there with our 45' Sea Ray.



In a mooring field! There were no other vessels, because it is not the best protected cove for easterly currents, but beautiful.



The Coconut Club at Ritz Carlton Hotel, came to us and asked us to leave, as they don't want any boats in the bay.



Nothing about taxes, school kids, crowded parking spots, rubbish removal!



Your argument fails.

I'm not sure how you can say anything I wrote about Texas "fails" because you enountered a renegade hotel owner in St Thomas. Get real.