Liveaboards at the gate

[Dankoozy]

I think the whole concept of property tax is a load of sh1t. Think about it, you are paying every year to hold onto something that you supposedly own. Of course the people imposing the tax will say it is for schools, roads, saving malnourished puppies and stuff you actually use but the fact is a whole lot of money gets squandered in every government. If one year they squander too much they can just say 'feck it, we will up the property tax and people have no choice but to pay'.



If you give a county council unlimited funds they will do their best to spend it all,you will see gold statues of past councillors appearing on every street corner, entire roads resurfaced when a tiny blemish appears.



I don't mind paying for stuff as long as I'm earning money but property tax doesn't care if you are making money or not. You could be Jeff Bezos or a pauper who has recently been left a big house that needs a lot of maintenance and you pay the same.



The only reason I can tell why people like property tax so much is because it forces poor people to move out of an area and makes sure all your neighbours are up to a minimum standard of poshness. There are plenty of snobs left in this world even though many won't admit it

[Happ]

Originally Posted by Elleroo

Live aboards don't have sewers, don't have garbage collection, don't have any utilities.


So, should they pay property taxes?

You use the same services everyone lose uses. You throw your garbage somewhere. You use the roads to go get groceries. You are paying for schools like everyone else. If you don’t like it here go to a 3rd world country. They probably dont have property taxes.

Remember if you are a registered voter you can voice your opinion at the voting booth.

[Kd9truck]

Originally Posted by Dankoozy

I think the whole concept of property tax is a load of sh1t. Think about it, you are paying every year to hold onto something that you supposedly own. Of course the people imposing the tax will say it is for schools, roads, saving malnourished puppies and stuff you actually use but the fact is a whole lot of money gets squandered in every government. If one year they squander too much they can just say 'feck it, we will up the property tax and people have no choice but to pay'.



If you give a county council unlimited funds they will do their best to spend it all,you will see gold statues of past councillors appearing on every street corner, entire roads resurfaced when a tiny blemish appears.



I don't mind paying for stuff as long as I'm earning money but property tax doesn't care if you are making money or not. You could be Jeff Bezos or a pauper who has recently been left a big house that needs a lot of maintenance and you pay the same.



The only reason I can tell why people like property tax so much is because it forces poor people to move out of an area and makes sure all your neighbours are up to a minimum standard of poshness. There are plenty of snobs left in this world even though many won't admit it

——————————————-

I may be a snob, my , my “ minimum standard of poshness” I call a middle class town,

Nobody likes property tax.

If you do not like taxes then do not vote for the politicians that raise them.

Move your vessel to a region/location where the politicians and snobs won’t bother you if you are out of work.

It seems that nobody minds if you park you boat for an extended stay along side low income housing, industrial canals, OT for that matter wilderness regions try giving those places a go.

[Boatyarddog]

Originally Posted by Dankoozy

I think the whole concept of property tax is a load of sh1t. Think about it, you are paying every year to hold onto something that you supposedly own. Of course the people imposing the tax will say it is for schools, roads, saving malnourished puppies and stuff you actually use but the fact is a whole lot of money gets squandered in every government. If one year they squander too much they can just say 'feck it, we will up the property tax and people have no choice but to pay'.



If you give a county council unlimited funds they will do their best to spend it all,you will see gold statues of past councillors appearing on every street corner, entire roads resurfaced when a tiny blemish appears.



I don't mind paying for stuff as long as I'm earning money but property tax doesn't care if you are making money or not. You could be Jeff Bezos or a pauper who has recently been left a big house that needs a lot of maintenance and you pay the same.



The only reason I can tell why people like property tax so much is because it forces poor people to move out of an area and makes sure all your neighbours are up to a minimum standard of poshness. There are plenty of snobs left in this world even though many won't admit it

Quite the Rant there.
And incorrect in many points.

As mentioned you use roads, many have kids in schools, yes there are shelters for wayward animals,( actually Most of that fund is donated).

The snobs you mention are your neighbors.

The street corners aren't full of "golden statues".

Most people own their home, or have a mortgage.https://woodgroupmortgage.com/articl...ership-america.

Jeff Bezos, because of federal tax law, not property tax law.
Pays very little income taxes because of wealth inequality.
Still pays state property taxes on many of those properties. Like us.

Property taxes:
They are calculated based on the total of assessed value in a given tax district, and the total budget of a given taxing authority. So, for example, if the sum of assessed values is $500,000 and taxing authority needs revenue of $2,500, the rate would be 0.5%.
Today, property tax accounts for about 30 percent of total state and local taxes. It continues to be the most important revenue source for public schools, re protection, libraries, and parks and recreation.

Of course you may not use these services, but because your neighbors have and will continue to need many of these services,
And because we live in a relatively developed country these "levies" are voted upon by the public along with general elections.
If you don't vote or aren't involved these lines will be drawn without your voice.

Politicians use Gerrymandering https://www.google.com/search?q=gerr...&client=safari.
To manipulate taxing districts, and it's use is destructive to those in those districts because it falsely includes or discludes individuals with varying levels of voter participation in its lines.
And that is how your cheated in your property tax assessments.

If your not involved in your local politics, you'll get run over.
We live in a representative system of politics!
So, if you let others dictate your concerns, that's what you get.
Get a voice and VOTE at every chance you can.
It's NOT convenient!
That's what the whole idea of making voting difficult is about.
MANIPULATION of Votes...
Dishonest as HELL!
So, those making voting difficult for all... Should be scorned, and jailed.
That's how, in our country we do it.
SV Cloud Duster

[Bycrick]

If you think you can simply just vote out the tax-and-spend crowd, I suggest you look at the history of Proposition 13 in California. It was designed to limit INCREASES in county and local property taxes, with the intent of reducing INCREASES in government spending. What happened? All the local taxing authorities went to the state to increase its taxes and give the money to local districts. Then the state dipped into the Feds pocket.

Did it cut down spending growth? Not really. As long as politicians can convince people that they can created programs to "benefit" their constituents while taxing somebody else, you will have the same problem. It’s really easy and painless to give away somebody else’s money.

[akopac]

I hate whining about whining…

[Lov2roq]

Originally Posted by bcguy

"Bloody free loaders, you are not welcome here sparked the shouting swear fest last night between an anchored boat and some shore folk." Privatization of ocean front by and for an infinitesimally small fraction of the local population is greed grab freeloading on its ultimate, I thought as my musings drifted along. Closed up the hatches, stoked the wood stove, pulled out a book and dozed off. This morning I thought this divide will only get worse everywhere, continually. Where is this going? So, I thought I would learn as much as I could about this conflict. This forum has many inciteful, intelligent people. (I have been here a long time). In this effort to be more fully educated I am hoping to obtain and would appreciate some references regarding this issue....articles, postings, threads ...etc (a book?). Thanks in advance...

I wonder if it is related to specifically to a California situation in Richardson Bay in Sausalito. These 'liveaboards' are equivalent to Squatters who pay no taxes - nothing - for prime waters/location all claiming their freedoms to do so. This includes "from about 90 boats in the 1970s to over 240 boats in 2016."

These squatters are giving other legitimate tax paying liveaboard owners/tenants a bad reputation. The slip fees include all the taxes and I'm sure more. No one gets a break lol.

Interesting read: https://www.marinij.com/2021/08/13/a...ichardson-bay/

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Bycrick

If you think you can simply just vote out the tax-and-spend crowd, I suggest you look at the history of Proposition 13 in California. It was designed to limit INCREASES in county and local property taxes, with the intent of reducing INCREASES in government spending. What happened? All the local taxing authorities went to the state to increase its taxes and give the money to local districts. Then the state dipped into the Feds pocket.

Did it cut down spending growth? Not really. As long as politicians can convince people that they can created programs to "benefit" their constituents while taxing somebody else, you will have the same problem. It’s really easy and painless to give away somebody else’s money.

Why would we want to vote out the "tax and spend" crowd? We're part of it. Taxes are needed to provide the gov't services we wish to see. I don't mind paying reasonable taxes and I think many jurisdictions do a good job of using those funds to provide good services.

I think it's easier to vote out the anti-government conservatives. Send them to Texas and then let them succeed this time

[JBP]

It's not possible to vote out the Tax and Spend politicians, your only choice is the Tax the rich and spend group or the tax the middle class and spend group. The age of fiscal responsibility is long gone.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Dankoozy

I think the whole concept of property tax is a load of sh1t. Think about it, you are paying every year to hold onto something that you supposedly own. Of course the people imposing the tax will say it is for schools, roads, saving malnourished puppies and stuff you actually use but the fact is a whole lot of money gets squandered in every government. If one year they squander too much they can just say 'feck it, we will up the property tax and people have no choice but to pay'.



If you give a county council unlimited funds they will do their best to spend it all,you will see gold statues of past councillors appearing on every street corner, entire roads resurfaced when a tiny blemish appears.



I don't mind paying for stuff as long as I'm earning money but property tax doesn't care if you are making money or not. You could be Jeff Bezos or a pauper who has recently been left a big house that needs a lot of maintenance and you pay the same.



The only reason I can tell why people like property tax so much is because it forces poor people to move out of an area and makes sure all your neighbours are up to a minimum standard of poshness. There are plenty of snobs left in this world even though many won't admit it

Simple we have 21% tax on sales ( VAT) and my property levy annually is €100

Property tax has been called America’s VAT

there’s little logic in individual taxes. Taken as a whole it represents in effect a degree of wealth transfer. The upside , wealthy people ( including the asset rich) get to sleep through the night and hold on to those assets.

[Bycrick]

OK. You don’t like property taxes. But "income" taxes are OK because you’re working. Only the people using a service should pay for it. OK. So, should I pay for the army and navy if we aren’t in a war? Do we put quarter-slots on the trash cans so that only the people who want to deposit trash pay? Should the people on welfare pay tax on their income? If people want "services," somebody has to pay for them. But everybody thinks that somebody should be somebody else.

[Dankoozy]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Simple we have 21% tax on sales ( VAT) and my property levy annually is €100

Property tax has been called America’s VAT

there’s little logic in individual taxes. Taken as a whole it represents in effect a degree of wealth transfer. The upside , wealthy people ( including the asset rich) get to sleep through the night and hold on to those assets.

That €100 will probably increase soon and was brought in during the crash in Greece I suppose. In Ireland there are people paying a similar amount but they want to push it up.



I voted in 2011 for a crowd who said they wouldn't bring in property tax, then as soon as they had a fresh 5-year mandate infront of them they brought it in anyway. Modern folk expect way too much in regards to services. Not that property tax is used to pay for it, here it goes into a central pot and that central pot pays out bank interest to private investors the government borrowed from because they were reckless spenders.


Almost every country has billions of debt usually to private banks. If they didn't have that there would be no need for property tax in any place

[JBP]

Saw this, this morning.

"The anchor-outs: San Francisco’s bohemian boat dwellers fight for their way of life"

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...richardson-bay

[Buzzman]

As always with waterfront communities, it comes down to money. But also, and especially, to a lack of empathy for the less fortunate that seems to characterise the rich.

There is an unfortunate notion, prevalent in the US especially, but also among conservatives worldwide, that once people are provided an opportunity to better themselves, they should avail themselves of it and make a financial success of their efforts. Sometimes this is called the 'American Dream'.

Sadly, for the bulk of the population that's all it is - a dream.

Reality is that inequality exists even among 'apparent equals'. Often whether or not someone 'succeeds' can be directly linked to the postcode of their childhood home. This indicates the socio-economic status of the parents, and can indicate also the level of intellect and schooling achieved, all of which can skew the advantage towards those with a bit more than others. The playing field is uneven right from the get-go.

While it is most often the exceptions to this that are pointed out - the dirt-poor immigrant who dragged himself up by his bootstraps kinda story - what these never acknowledge is that the individual concerned had something that enabled their success. Maybe it was luck. Being friends with or working with Bill Gates way back was the ticket to success for a lot of millionaires'. Discovering an oil field under your otherwise worthless grazing land. Being in the right place at the right time, and able (and willing) to exploit an opportunity no-one else perceived. Sometimes physical fitness alone was enough of an advantage, as tuna line fisherman discovered, or the fleet of foot and fist discovered in the ring.

Maybe the individual was simply ruthless, exploiting the labour of the same people he grew up amongst, in order to siphon off enough of the profits to make himself wealthy at their expense.

Maybe he was just super smart or super curious and figured out a new way to do something, or invented a new widget that took off and made him a motza. But there is always that extra 'something' that his peers lacked, or did not realise they had (or chose not to deploy...or exploit).

What seems almost universal is that once wealthy, the majority of those who have become wealthy see themselves as somehow exceptional, and hence look down on those less fortunate. They argue that they raised themselves up, often citing 'hard work', and claim if they could do it, anyone else can too. Which of course is patently not the case. But it gives rise to this erroneous notion that somehow THEY were deserving of their success, and those who have not been as successful, are therefore 'underserving' or lazy, or a bunch of good-for-nothing layabouts....you get the picture.

Back in the Sixties, and even the Seventies, when Sausalito was not the playground of millionaires it is today, there would have been dock workers, shift foremen, Council employees and even low-grade bureacrats, teachers and State employees looking out over the Richardson Bay anchor field, thinking there but for the sake of a good job go I....

In other words, there was a degree of empathy towards those less fortunate, but who were 'managing', or at least 'surviving'.

Nowadays, the millionaires in their waterfront condos cannot bear the though that someone else - some 'worthless bum' - is getting the same views and amenities they had to pay millions for, for free.

It's that 'for free' that rankles most. It's a form of reverse envy.

Sure, it's not a universal truth. I'm sure there are lots of locals in Marin who are more of the 'live and let live' mentality, but there is a definite sense that the less well off are also less 'deserving' than their better off 'peers'.

This attitude too is almost universal. I have read academic papers that point to this attitude - historically, as well as today. There is a notion referred to as the 'deserving poor', designed to separate them from the 'undeserving poor' - essentially a 'judgement call' by those making it.

Historically, welfare was provided by Churches, and they chose very carefully who and to what degree they would support them.

For example, a recently widowed mother of three, regular church goer and 'God-fearing' would receive more amd more immediate 'welfare assistance' than, say, a woman who had recently escaped her violent husband with her three kids, but who was supporting them via dubious means. Perhaps not a sexworker entirely, but a barmaid, or working nights in a club, or working three jobs all of them low paid... Perhaps she was simply not a member of the 'faithful', or was of the 'wrong' faith. A Muslim, or Hindu, or even a Catholic in a Protestant town...

It's also why the disabled so seldom receive anything like largess, as they can seldom contribute to the community in return. Oddly, the more disabled the less welfare one can take advantage of, yet perversely, the more assistance provided generally the better off the disabled become, and the more likely they wil be able to contribute to society. It's almost like they are blamed for their misfortune.

The anchor outs, sadly, are just the latest in a long line of "the undeserving" who are having that status rubbed in their faces. It is similar to the attitude shown towards the landbound 'homeless' - or 'houseless' as one of the boaters described himself. On land they have tents which, to them, are home, but which also do not comply with 'the rules'. Well, derr. If a 'houseless' person was capable of complying, then they probably would not be houseless.

But the attitude shown towards them is the same. No, or very little empathy, for the undeserving. And lack of adequate resources to tackle the root causes of their homeless state merely exacerbates 'the problem.'
As an example, the unhoused (especially in the US) often live out of their cars but, if the registration or insurance lapses, they can have that 'home' taken from them also, and this in turn adds another person or family to the 'houseless and homeless' living in tents on the streets. In this case, a simple waiver of the fees would have been enough to keep them 'housed', in their car, and thus a tiny bit independent and still able to get to wherever work could be found. Where I live, those on age or disability pensions do not pay State registration fees, but do require insurance. But those who are unemployed, on unemployment benefits, don't receive this 'bounty'. They are deemed 'less deserving'. Yet they are actually worse off financially as the unemployment benefit is much less than that for a disabled or aged person. So, technically, they could use the assistance much more, and are actively looking for work, and to get their they obviously need a car..... Again, it's a 'judgement call'. Their lack of employment must be their own fault.

While I recognise that a 'homeless village' such as those that have been created in several places in Oregon is not a real option for the Richardson Bay crowd, surely there must be some other backwater, or unloved slough up the delta, that no-one else really cares for or about and to which these 'houseless' boat-owners could be directed...??? Perhaps a shower or toilet block created to avoid the otherwise inevitable pollution of that waterway?? Perhaps a Payphone, or a tower with wifi or internet relay??

There must be another solution that avoids the destruction of their homes. Essentially the State is *making * them homeless, and adding to the landbound misery of the perpetually-moved-on tent-dweller.

Sadly, this is just another in a long line of 'don't make this my problem' attitudes on the part of ever-disagreeing authorities.

But I ask myself this: do local authorities patrol the streets of their towns and communities with bulldozers, evicting and flattening homes that have not been painted for a few years? Or that have car parts or other detritus in the front yard? No, they do not. There would be screams up to the President and the Supreme Court.

But this group of house-owners has no-one to advocate for them, and no authority invested in assisting them. Like the tented homeless, they have slipped that additional rung down the ladder of success that signifies 'failure', and are no longer deserving of the support of the community in which they live.

Sad is the state of our times.....

[TheSarahTonin]

All you have to do is be able to leave, then you can stay wherever you want.