Month 35 Expenses of Cruising and Living on the Boat

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Purchase an older boat then replace items piece-meal on a monthly basis as they wear out, or purchase a newer boat or refit with newer items to begin with.... then not worry about big ticket items on a monthly basis except four routine service done by operator.

The choice is yours.

Yes, but that is exactly the point. I agree that spending the capital up front then reduces the cashflow outlay on a monthly basis (and smart capital purchases may help significantly as you indicate, eg: a good solar setup, so far reduced hours on the genset)

However whilst that capital outlay may now not be part of your monthly cruising budget / expenses, it should still be included in your "overall cost to cruise".

It's the same with CatNewBee. He spent around 16K euros setting the boat up with a great solar, battery, and electric system (galley + other) enabling far reduced 'running costs' on a monthly basis.

However to make a fair comparison of the "overall cost to cruise" that 16k euros still needs to be accounted for.

Basically 16k euros divided up by how many months of use will be gained from it, or how many months until the gear it bought will need to be replaced.

So is that 16k euros divided by 5 years/60 months, 10 years/120 months, or maybe even 15 years/180 months?

Some of the equipment will last almost forever (eg: the arch/frame for the solar), some of it might be worn out in 5 years (eg: the batteries), OR simply you might in some way finish your use of the equipment (eg: sell the boat - probably you wont get this money back).

All of that needs to be factored in to the accounting.

Using 10 years is probably reasonable as far as life of the gear, however many people will just not use the same equipment or boat for a whole 10 years, or by then the equipment is simply 'old' (or old technology) and will be replaced beforehand anyway.

So 5 years is probably more realistic from an accounting point of view.

In CatNewBee's case, let's say 16k euros divided by 5 years/60 months. On a very simple basis that's 267 euros per month (9 euros per day) to provide almost all the electricity, cooking, refrigeration and other general needs onboard.

Divided up like that it seems pretty good value in fact - but as far as the "overall cost of cruising" it is still not zero / 0 euros / 0 dollars no matter how you look at it

(NB: no offense and a big thanks to CatNewBee, I used his numbers because of his great and detailed thread here: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ey-201795.html)

By the way, I agree with the general principle of spending capital up front on the right boat and the right equipment, to lessen the monthly expenses thereafter, but this also has to be properly accounted for too, as well as done with good sense relative to how (and for how long) the boat will be used.

On the other hand, for those without so much capital to spend up front it may be for example, more achievable financially to run a small Honda generator, and be pay the fuel monthly instead of investing in a serious solar setup.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Yes, but that is exactly the point. I agree that spending the capital up front then reduces the cashflow outlay on a monthly basis (and smart capital purchases may help significantly as you indicate, eg: a good solar setup, so far reduced hours on the genset)

However whilst that capital outlay may now not be part of your monthly cruising budget / expenses, it should still be included in your "overall cost to cruise".

It's the same with CatNewBee. He spent around 16K euros setting the boat up with a great solar, battery, and electric system (galley + other) enabling far reduced 'running costs' on a monthly basis.

However to make a fair comparison of the "overall cost to cruise" that 16k euros still needs to be accounted for.

Basically 16k euros divided up by how many months of use will be gained from it, or how many months until the gear it bought will need to be replaced.

So is that 16k euros divided by 5 years/60 months, 10 years/120 months, or maybe even 15 years/180 months?

Some of the equipment will last almost forever (eg: the arch/frame for the solar), some of it might be worn out in 5 years (eg: the batteries), OR simply you might in some way finish your use of the equipment (eg: sell the boat - probably you wont get this money back).

All of that needs to be factored in to the accounting.

Using 10 years is probably reasonable as far as life of the gear, however many people will just not use the same equipment or boat for a whole 10 years, or by then the equipment is simply 'old' (or old technology) and will be replaced beforehand anyway.

So 5 years is probably more realistic from an accounting point of view.

In CatNewBee's case, let's say 16k euros divided by 5 years/60 months. On a very simple basis that's 267 euros per month (9 euros per day) to provide almost all the electricity, cooking, refrigeration and other general needs onboard.

Divided up like that it seems pretty good value in fact - but as far as the "overall cost of cruising" it is still not zero / 0 euros / 0 dollars no matter how you look at it

(NB: no offense and a big thanks to CatNewBee, I used his numbers because of his great and detailed thread here: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ey-201795.html)

By the way, I agree with the general principle of spending capital up front on the right boat and the right equipment, to lessen the monthly expenses thereafter, but this also has to be properly accounted for too, as well as done with good sense relative to how (and for how long) the boat will be used.

On the other hand, for those without so much capital to spend up front it may be for example, more achievable financially to run a small Honda generator, and be pay the fuel monthly instead of investing in a serious solar setup.

My equipment will depreciate over time as it ages, but it will not cost me on a monthly basis going forward. One pays prior or one pays piece-meal on a monthly bases... personal choice.

I’ve chosen to pay prior to departure in order to keep ongoing monthly cost to €15-€20 euros per day on the 53. The system seems to be working.

I do understand what you wrote, my only point is to show that in order to head out cruising, it doesn’t have to cost $4,000-$5,000 per month if the heavy lifting is done prior to departure; monthly ongoing costs can be reduced, especially in places like Greece.

[MV Wanderlust]

Thanks for continuing to post your results, SB. We find your openness to be very helpful in our planning.

John

[sailorboy1]

at $4k/mo total costs that include boat maintenance because I have to maintain my old boat it will take a looooooooong time to even out the costs of buying a new boat

But to me this whole thing is just an example of the "not counting" method of reporting costs to cruise

Meanwhile I report monthly to within a few dollars all the money I spend (my money)and what I used it for and let people interested decide if they would spend their money the same way. I'm only sharing the data, not looking for agreement.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I do understand what you wrote, my only point is to show that in order to head out cruising, it doesn’t have to cost $4,000-$5,000 per month if the heavy lifting is done prior to departure; monthly ongoing costs can be reduced, especially in places like Greece.

This I totally agree with Some smart upfront capital expenditure, as part of the purchase price, or refit costs, can vastly reduce the monthly (or semi regular/maintenance) expenses.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

at $4k/mo total costs that include boat maintenance because I have to maintain my old boat it will take a looooooooong time to even out the costs of buying a new boat

This too though For some people it may make more sense to 'pay monthly' than to outlay significantly more capital (especially in the way of a newer/better boat) up front.

For my next boat it's my plan to try to compromise with a much cheaper, simpler boat to which I can add a modern setup (read: CatNewBee style, but probably 50% of his setup) to still be within a more modest total capital outlay, while still getting some of the advantages towards reducing the monthly expenses.

Thanks again @sailorboy1 for continuing to post your monthly numbers. It gives everyone a baseline to work to, or from, regardless of whether one thinks it too much, or not enough

[Mike OReilly]

It costs me and my partner ~$1,200 (USD) per month to live the way we do. And that’s everything from insurance to food to fuel to entertainment. My spouse actually itemizes and tracks every dollar spent. I prefer the big picture perspective. But either way, I know exactly how much it costs for us to live.

On this budget we eat out a few times a year (not a month). We don’t travel in expensive, touristy areas. We do almost all our own maintenance work, and we live on the hook as much as possible.

Our boat is equipped for long-term liveability (large tankage, self-sufficient electricity, good anchoring gear, simple and reliable equipment). And like Ken, we invested upfront in our boat and equipment so that our monthly expenses can be quite low. And perhaps most importantly, we have zero debt. Everything we own, including the boat, is free and clear.

We’e been out since 2015, cruising half the year, and then doing other things the other half. Our total costs for the full year are about $1,200/month. We spend less on the boat half of the year vs the other.

[smj]

Originally Posted by daletournier

I agree that overtime if your using the boat to travel 3k / mth is the minimum most will spend,its very close to what I spend. As you said you can obviously let the boat run down and save money short term. Many spend more.

Usage obviously plays a big part, if one sits at the same Anchorage for 12 mths well then that changes everything.

Boats cost money, as mentioned my boat is in extremely good condition BUT stuff gets old. I replaced 3 Lewmar hatch hinges last week. Most boats these days have these hatches. The hinges eventually break, just the way it is. These hinges at Budget marine are approx $60usd a hatch. Theres $180 gone just like that. This is normal. Replaced my chain 1 mth ago ,2k, my jib that was new 18 mths ago as a small RIP, it's going to the sail maker today, the list goes on.

Yes the boat costs money, and the larger boat with more systems will cost much more than a simple boat with fewer systems.......except Kens large Oysters which seem to have the ability to print money.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by smj

Yes the boat costs money, and the larger boat with more systems will cost much more than a simple boat with fewer systems.......except Kens large Oysters which seem to have the ability to print money.

The smaller boat costing less isn't really true except for a couple of items. I feel this is a "story" that boaters with smaller boats like to use. The extra cost of haulout and paint for a boat 10-15' larger are minor in the big picture. Marina costs are linear so a 40' boat costs 1/3 more than a 30' boat. Most "complex" systems don't change (chartplotter, radar, refrigeration, autopilot, etc.) don't really change unless the small boat just doesn't have them.

A case can even be made for sails not costing more for a cruiser if you measure the sail cost in $/mile as they get used less and are exposed to less elements while making the trip faster than a slower boat.

Cthoops has been posting their costs on a 30' that they did a refit on prior to leaving. Their boat costs have been more than my 43' boat, which I didn't refit prior to leaving.

Boat costs accounting are greatly effected by whether you truly keep track of all thos small items you buy to maintain your boat or not.

[daletournier]

All though many of us do big fitouts prior to leaving theres still the upgrades along the way, not necessarily needs but wants.

Few of us "dont" add stuff as we go, I'm abit of a boat geek therefore I like making it better.

Eg, I had a old RL70 Raytheon plotter in the cockpit, it's really outdated regarding chart purchasing for a rtw cruising, I recently replaced it with a Raymarine Axiom, did I need to? Nope, could of kept using a tablet upstairs and open cpn downstairs BUT I dont like things that dont work well on my boat, therefore another boat buck gets thrown away. Can I afford to spend on luxury like a axiom? I dont know, ask me in 20 years time and I'll know...lol.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

The smaller boat costing less isn't really true except for a couple of items. I feel this is a "story" that boaters with smaller boats like to use. The extra cost of haulout and paint for a boat 10-15' larger are minor in the big picture. Marina costs are linear so a 40' boat costs 1/3 more than a 30' boat. Most "complex" systems don't change (chartplotter, radar, refrigeration, autopilot, etc.) don't really change unless the small boat just doesn't have them.

A case can even be made for sails not costing more for a cruiser if you measure the sail cost in $/mile as they get used less and are exposed to less elements while making the trip faster than a slower boat.

Cthoops has been posting their costs on a 30' that they did a refit on prior to leaving. Their boat costs have been more than my 43' boat, which I didn't refit prior to leaving.

Boat costs accounting are greatly effected by whether you truly keep track of all thos small items you buy to maintain your boat or not.

Very true Sailorboy.

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

It costs me and my partner ~$1,200 (USD) per month to live the way we do. And that’s everything from insurance to food to fuel to entertainment. My spouse actually itemizes and tracks every dollar spent. I prefer the big picture perspective. But either way, I know exactly how much it costs for us to live.

On this budget we eat out a few times a year (not a month). We don’t travel in expensive, touristy areas. We do almost all our own maintenance work, and we live on the hook as much as possible.

Our boat is equipped for long-term liveability (large tankage, self-sufficient electricity, good anchoring gear, simple and reliable equipment). And like Ken, we invested upfront in our boat and equipment so that our monthly expenses can be quite low. And perhaps most importantly, we have zero debt. Everything we own, including the boat, is free and clear.

We’e been out since 2015, cruising half the year, and then doing other things the other half. Our total costs for the full year are about $1,200/month. We spend less on the boat half of the year vs the other.

Mike,

I’m quite sure if you were over here in Greece cruising along side us, that our monthly expenditures would be roughly the same, due to our boats having been prepped similarly before our cruising days began and our frugal spending habits. The only difference being, that you’d probably eat out more often. Many times we’re finding the restaurant food to be costing less than the cost of the ingredients to make it ourselves.

[smj]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

The smaller boat costing less isn't really true except for a couple of items. I feel this is a "story" that boaters with smaller boats like to use. The extra cost of haulout and paint for a boat 10-15' larger are minor in the big picture. Marina costs are linear so a 40' boat costs 1/3 more than a 30' boat. Most "complex" systems don't change (chartplotter, radar, refrigeration, autopilot, etc.) don't really change unless the small boat just doesn't have them.



A case can even be made for sails not costing more for a cruiser if you measure the sail cost in $/mile as they get used less and are exposed to less elements while making the trip faster than a slower boat.



Cthoops has been posting their costs on a 30' that they did a refit on prior to leaving. Their boat costs have been more than my 43' boat, which I didn't refit prior to leaving.



Boat costs accounting are greatly effected by whether you truly keep track of all thos small items you buy to maintain your boat or not.

So what I gather is if a boats 30% longer then your costs will be about 30% greater taking into account a comparable fit out.
Having owned catamarans between 30’-43’ I can guarantee the 43’er was much more costly to maintain than the 30’er, I’m guessing well over 30% more. But then again it had much more crap to maintain and replace.

[Kenomac]

Proportionally, smaller boats are more expensive to maintain has been our experience, and it all depends on how the boat is being used. If a thirty footer spends most of its time in marinas and begins in a state of disrepair, it’s going to cost much more to maintain than a 45 or even a 53ft boat which starts out in nearly new condition and spends nearly all the time in anchorages.

[tarian]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

The smaller boat costing less isn't really true except for a couple of items. I feel this is a "story" that boaters with smaller boats like to use. The extra cost of haulout and paint for a boat 10-15' larger are minor in the big picture. Marina costs are linear so a 40' boat costs 1/3 more than a 30' boat. Most "complex" systems don't change (chartplotter, radar, refrigeration, autopilot, etc.) don't really change unless the small boat just doesn't have them.

A case can even be made for sails not costing more for a cruiser if you measure the sail cost in $/mile as they get used less and are exposed to less elements while making the trip faster than a slower boat.

Cthoops has been posting their costs on a 30' that they did a refit on prior to leaving. Their boat costs have been more than my 43' boat, which I didn't refit prior to leaving.

Boat costs accounting are greatly effected by whether you truly keep track of all thos small items you buy to maintain your boat or not.

Sorry do not get the logic here , a small boat will have the need for a smaller autopilot , and I can assure you going from a raymarine type 1 to 2 cost more money
A small boat will have a smaller fridge , to a larger boat with Fride seperate freezer , etc , a lot more money

Some small boats get away with smaller repair items from screws to hatches to less paint etc

A marina charges by the Metre or foot a 30 ft boat is much more less expensive that a 43 ft which takes you over the 12 M mark for most EU marinas

A small baot will have less sail area thefore much less money spent on their sails

A small boat wuill also have a smaller engine pushing a less heavy craft therefore using much less fuel per Mile used

Am I missing something

Like for like cost for a small 30ft boat v a 43ft boat for a lift out sail refit , bottom painting 1 week in a marina anhd 500 mile motor sail
with top of range equipment like fridge, mattresses etc in comparison to size allowed on the boat
I am no Maths genius but I can guarantee there will be 1000,s of Dollars in diffrence

[smj]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Proportionally, smaller boats are more expensive to maintain has been our experience, and it all depends on how the boat is being used. If a thirty footer spends most of its time in marinas and begins in a state of disrepair, it’s going to cost much more to maintain than a 45 or even a 53ft boat which starts out in nearly new condition and spends nearly all the time in anchorages.

Yes, and a brand new 30’ fiberglass boat is going to cost less to maintain than a 53’ wooden boat kept in a termite infested boatyard. I was comparing apples to apples.