Richardson Bay liveaboards, heads up!

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by sailorchic34

It's compassionate because they are not sleeping in a carbboard box on the street. Storms are never fun. I've sat out more then a few. Even once in RB

I know that about 50 percent of the boats in RB are actually pretty seaworthy Least to my eye. Yes there are the derelict's too, more then a few and there but for the grace of god go I.

You just want to get rid of the boats and put the people on the street. Many have jobs ashore, many are retired on a "Fixed" income. With rents of $1500 for a one bedroom apartment, Most just can't afford it. I sure can't. But then I was living aboard when I was making $90K so I was ahead of the curve.

So your idea of compassion, is allowing people who you assume would be homeless in cardboard boxes otherwise, to anchor their derelict wrecks illegally. Then watch as several of their wrecks wash up on the shore during each storm (twelve during the last bad one) and some die in the process (like last week).

Wow... I consider that neglect and lawlessness, especially if "50 percent" of the boats aren't seaworthy. Where's the Coast Guard on this issue?

My idea of compassion, is following the laws which were laid down for everybody (including those living on the wrecks), cleaning up the mess in the anchorage and providing some assistance to those in need when they move ashore. I know there're many shelters and public housing available along with food banks and medical services in the area, why not help those in need by putting in some time volunteering to help some of those folks on the water by encouraging them to seek safety ashore and by helping out at the shelters?

Truly... I don't understand your logic on this matter, which seems to be.... leave them (those living aboard the wrecks) alone to possibly die on their wrecks during the next storm. 'Just doesn't seem very "compassionate to me."

That would be like me in the medical biz, just sitting there watching people die without making any effort to save them during a crisis. I'm guessing we have a significant difference of opinion and values on this Richardson Bay matter.

[sailorchic34]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

That would be like me in the medical biz, just sitting there watching people die without making any effort to save them during a crisis. I'm guessing we have a significant difference of opinion and values on this Richardson Bay matter.

I am laughing at the shelters and public housing available comment. There is a total lack of available affordable homes for low income people in california and a total lack of public housing vacancies and the shelters are all full. SF has at least 800 people living on the streets full time (that's after the shelters are full).

I agree that they should have assistance, but it is so very lacking. Food stamps and medi-CAL is available and I'm pretty sure many of the anchor outs have that. But public housing has no vacancies and very long wait lists

New public housing, the NIMBY folks scream every-time someone mentions public housing. There are some existing public housing, but they are FULL. I checked the Marin public housing websites That is the waitlists are so long that they closed the wait lists. That's how very bad it is and why folks risk their life living on the bay in an OLD boat. California looks so progressive, but it's actually a pretty harsh place. That is why RB remains the last stop for many.

It would be nice if there was an alternative place these folks could go. But there just isn't. That is the reality of california. Perhaps jail, but the jails are full too. Kicking them off their boats and onto the streets would in my mind be heartless.

EDIT: BTW the coast guard has washed their hands of RB. They passed that to the RBRA who has little money to enforce any laws and is having a hard time just getting enough $$$ to keep the doors open.

As to volunteering. First I don't own a car and have to work 5 days a week just to make a $600 monthly income to support my lavish yachty lifestyle. I oddly avoid RB most of the time as it's just too much like living in a city with lots of noise and lots of boat wakes from that very busy harbor. So not a place for me.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by sailorchic34

I am laughing at the shelters and public housing available comment. There is a total lack of available affordable homes for low income people in california and a total lack of public housing vacancies and the shelters are all full. SF has at least 800 people living on the streets full time (that's after the shelters are full).

I agree that they should have assistance, but it is so very lacking. Food stamps and medi-CAL is available and I'm pretty sure many of the anchor outs have that. But public housing has no vacancies and very long wait lists

New public housing, the NIMBY folks scream every-time someone mentions public housing. There are some existing public housing, but they are FULL. I checked the Marin public housing websites That is the waitlists are so long that they closed the wait lists. That's how very bad it is and why folks risk their life living on the bay in an OLD boat. California looks so progressive, but it's actually a pretty harsh place. That is why RB remains the last stop for many.

It would be nice if there was an alternative place these folks could go. But there just isn't. That is the reality of california. Perhaps jail, but the jails are full too. Kicking them off their boats and onto the streets would in my mind be heartless.

EDIT: BTW the coast guard has washed their hands of RB. They passed that to the RBRA who has little money to enforce any laws and is having a hard time just getting enough $$$ to keep the doors open.

As to volunteering. First I don't own a car and have to work 5 days a week just to make a $600 monthly income to support my lavish yachty lifestyle. I oddly avoid RB most of the time as it's just too much like living in a city with lots of noise and lots of boat wakes from that very busy harbor. So not a place for me.

Like other people..... they (the ones living on the wrecks) can move inland where housing is available. People don't have a right in America to live where ever they like for free on the dole with others paying paying for their food and shelter. We don't live on the coast here in Massachusetts. No one is being forced to live in dangerous Richardson Bay due to lack of housing, that's just total nonsense. Housing is available elsewhere... just not on the water.

Everyone has time to volunteer, sounds to me like you like to complain about the status quo, but don't plan on doing anything to help change things. You work full-time, 40 + hours per week to make only $150 per week as an engineer? That's only $4 per hour which is a little difficult to believe.

Lot's of excuses in your previous post, but no action.

[Hudson Force]

Misery is not hard to find anywhere. For every one person dying in Richardson Bay there are over one hundred fleeing Libya drowning in the Mediterranean. Even a volunteer with the compassion of Mother Theresa would be overwhelmed during any attempt volunteer as a cruiser aboard a sailboat. There are derelict boats in the Med with people dying, but, Ken, don't go there. Stay safe despite your concerns and your experience with saving lives. There's really very little you can do despite your commitment to volunteering. Stay safe!

[a64pilot]

It has a lot to do with in my opinion what I consider freedom to be. I would like to think I live in a place that I can chose the manner in which I live, and I personally would rather live in a cardboard box than have to rely on the government dole.
However I do concede that the limit of my freedom ends in my opinion right where it begins to negatively effect others.
Myself I'd rather they were left alone, and as terrible as this sounds in the modern world, if they drown, they drown.
I bet there are more derelict run down houses in Detroit than there are derelict boats in Richardsons Bay.
I don't have the answer, my only point is it's really not about boats, it's bigger than that.

[Jason Flare]

Liberty is messy.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

It has a lot to do with in my opinion what I consider freedom to be. I would like to think I live in a place that I can chose the manner in which I live, and I personally would rather live in a cardboard box than have to rely on the government dole.
However I do concede that the limit of my freedom ends in my opinion right where it begins to negatively effect others.
Myself I'd rather they were left alone, and as terrible as this sounds in the modern world, if they drown, they drown.
I bet there are more derelict run down houses in Detroit than there are derelict boats in Richardsons Bay.
I don't have the answer, my only point is it's really not about boats, it's bigger than that.

One question for clarification. What do you mean by on the government dole?
Techically I am supported by tax dollars (30% VA ) and I also get a small bit from snap.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by Jason Flare

Liberty is messy.

And apparently for some - too messy to be allowed.

I also have a problem with "what if" type of laws or law enforcement. This is a sure way toward authoritarianism and worse. If and when any of those "derelict" boats in fact do any damage to others or the environment then and only then should society or affected individuals have the right to complain, etc. The "what ifs" have turned this society from strong self reliant one into a "land of snowflakes". And one would've thought that CF would be the last place to discourage self reliance and living off a gov't dole.

[The Smokester]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

...I don't have the answer, my only point is it's really not about boats, it's bigger than that.

I agree! Nor do I.

[sailorchic34]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Like other people..... they (the ones living on the wrecks) can move inland where housing is available. People don't have a right in America to live where ever they like for free on the dole with others paying paying for their food and shelter. We don't live on the coast here in Massachusetts. No one is being forced to live in dangerous Richardson Bay due to lack of housing, that's just total nonsense. Housing is available elsewhere... just not on the water.

Everyone has time to volunteer, sounds to me like you like to complain about the status quo, but don't plan on doing anything to help change things. You work full-time, 40 + hours per week to make only $150 per week as an engineer? That's only $4 per hour which is a little difficult to believe.

Lot's of excuses in your previous post, but no action.

Ken explain to me how they can afford to move inland. Do they walk to nevada and live in the desert. Housing in California for those with just $500-$1000 a month just is not available period. Public housing is 100% full and most of the wait lists (3-5 years long) are closed.

So no there isn't housing available. I know of an old army vet who lives on his boat. he has multiple health issues. He was a 30 year vet (airborne) and was hoping to get in a vets home for his last year or two of life. No such luck. No room. Our last conversation was talk about when one takes their own life, because healthcare is not affordable in this country.

Actually I do volunteer, I volunteer my time here on CF as a moderator for 10 hours a week or so helping the down trodden oyster owners get through life. How much time do you volunteer Ken?.

Gee who said I worked 40 hours a week. That's just crazy talk . I work 10-20 hours a week, depending on demand from my 3-4 clients. Some weeks I make $60, some weeks $300. That's before taxes, which I do pay, though OK not all that much.

Don't you own apartment units ken. Why not take in a few homeless yourself and give them a fresh start at a new life.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Hudson Force

Misery is not hard to find anywhere. For every one person dying in Richardson Bay there are over one hundred fleeing Libya drowning in the Mediterranean. There are derelict boats in the Med with people dying, but, Ken, don't go there. Stay safe despite your concerns and your experience with saving lives. There's really very little you can do despite your commitment to volunteering. Stay safe!

You are totally wrong. After cruising the Med for five years, I have yet to see a harbor filled with derelict boats like those I saw first hand in Richardson bay. We'll continue to enjoy the Med. Unlike what people in America seem to believe, we have not seen a single refugee/migrant boat coming from Syria or Lybia.

[Schooner Chandlery]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

It has a lot to do with in my opinion what I consider freedom to be. I would like to think I live in a place that I can chose the manner in which I live, and I personally would rather live in a cardboard box than have to rely on the government dole.
However I do concede that the limit of my freedom ends in my opinion right where it begins to negatively effect others.
Myself I'd rather they were left alone, and as terrible as this sounds in the modern world, if they drown, they drown.
I bet there are more derelict run down houses in Detroit than there are derelict boats in Richardsons Bay.
I don't have the answer, my only point is it's really not about boats, it's bigger than that.

I understand your viewpoint. Especially as seeing there are empty houses being torn down in places like Detroit and ones being sold for a $1 in places like Indianapolis to try and find people to live in them and fix them up -- yet nobody to live there. If a person is living on a government check or on "nothing" at all, then the midwest is certainly more cost effective than an oceanside view of the SF Bay.

In general, I like it when I see someone who has found a clever way to exist, inexpensively, without impacting other people. This can happen anywhere. The problem with RB is that it isn't just one or two folks who have found a way to live inexpensively w/o bothering anyone but rather it is a bay with a huge number of non-operating vessels with people living aboard and impacting other people. That creates an impact yes.

NIMBY types we can make fun of, sure, who cares what their view is or what they wish their view was? However, when boaters (visiting cruisers, daysailers, racers, fishing boats, all the rest) are unable to effectively use the navigable waterways because a bunch of unmoving debris is anchored in RB and/or those same bits of raftups and vessels will drag into cruising boats, fishing boats, and other vessels during a storm...then there is an impact to all boaters by the non-moving non-boaters who have chosen to live in RB.

It's a sad problem beyond the scope of this discussion but it is really a problem that no amount of being nice and blaming the state of CA or other parties for will get rid of. The individuals involved each have their own situation to deal with, sad or otherwise. Each of them is making a choice to stay in RB. Some of their choices each of us would agree with, others we would not. In all cases, someone staying permanently in a single place in public space/navigable waterways is a selfish act taking the view that the rights of that individual are more important than everyone else's. When people are without resources or potential assistance, like refugees fleeing a war zone, we all can see a temporary use of public resources as the action taken because of that person needing to survive. When people are staying put w/o authorization using public resources (e.g. squatting in public waterways) for indefinite periods w/o even looking for other alternatives, it is another matter and returns one to the idea that it is a selfish act.

There is nothing "nice" about the RB situation as it is right now. I don't like the fact that the local governments do not take action to put in place affordable housing in compliance with the state of California's requirements for affordable housing (e.g. for every x many market-rate units a certain number of affordable units must be built...) but that is another story in and of itself. For boaters, the bottom line is the RB is definitely a mess as it is right now.

[weavis]

As much as I love leaving threads alone and hoping that a world of puppy dogs and Candy... Im seeing that this particular thread might just get a bit bumpy in due course....

We are moving into politics and personal opinion and I dont think that will bode well for my vision of puppy dogs on CF. Sometimes the world sucks in how people are treated, and sometimes people dont really help themselves at times.. Let us move away from argumentation and head for hallowed ground of discussion.... a much more amenable place.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by sailorchic34

Ken explain to me how they can afford to move inland. Do they walk to nevada and live in the desert. Housing in California for those with just $500-$1000 a month just is not available period. Public housing is 100% full and most of the wait lists (3-5 years long) are closed.

So no there isn't housing available. I know of an old army vet who lives on his boat. he has multiple health issues. He was a 30 year vet (airborne) and was hoping to get in a vets home for his last year or two of life. No such luck. No room. Our last conversation was talk about when one takes their own life, because healthcare is not affordable in this country.

Actually I do volunteer, I volunteer my time here on CF as a moderator for 10 hours a week or so helping the down trodden oyster owners get through life. How much time do you volunteer Ken?.

Gee who said I worked 40 hours a week. That's just crazy talk . I work 10-20 hours a week, depending on demand from my 3-4 clients. Some weeks I make $60, some weeks $300. That's before taxes, which I do pay, though OK not all that much.

Don't you own apartment units ken. Why not take in a few homeless yourself and give them a fresh start at a new life.

I don't own an apartment building and never have, but I do work as a registered nurse 60-80 hours per week during my six months on land at two local hospitals, so I do see more than my fair share of suffering and contribute plenty of spare time helping out. Your comments regarding death due to unavailable or high priced healthcare is also total nonsense. Healthcare has been a available for free to anyone in America for over 25 years, it's been a law that no one can be turned away due to an inability to pay.

[sailorchic34]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I don't know what snap is.

Snap is the official abbreviation for food stamps.

Gee Ken did not say you owned an apartment building, but don't you own commercial property with a few rental units above the first floor. So your saying you don't have time to volunteer? I thought you said everyone has time to volunteer. So working 80 hours a week for 1/2 a year is just like working full time. No wonder your grumpy.

The RB issue is a problem no question. Not sure where the folks should go. DO we spread them out around the bay and delta. OH wait, there are laws limiting anchor outs everywhere in the bay and delta. Where do they go. How do they get there.

The short answer is there is not enough resources (money) available to add enough housing. Mind you new low income hosuing is being planned and built but that takes years and years and is full up before type even open.