Source of hot water while cruising

[jpendoley]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

I'd never heard of this unit before so I looked it up. The instructions say that combustion air must be drawn from outside and exhaust air must be exhausted out the the "RV" but don't show any relevant fittings or provide instructions. How do you accomplish that ? This is one of the reasons the other brands do not meet ABYC requirements.

The exhaust fitting on my unit runs from the unit, which is in the cockpit locker, to the Stern via flexible stainless inch and a half exhaust hose and an angled exhaust thru hull fitting. If you serve their website they specifically address mounting in a boat. I realize this is an emerging market but after all the homework I did it would seem to meet all of the a BYC requirements. And even if it doesn’t I consider it safe enough for my purposes. Just had a nice hot shower on the 40° fall day.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by jpendoley

The exhaust fitting on my unit runs from the unit, which is in the cockpit locker, to the Stern via flexible stainless inch and a half exhaust hose and an angled exhaust thru hull fitting. If you serve their website they specifically address mounting in a boat. I realize this is an emerging market but after all the homework I did it would seem to meet all of the a BYC requirements. And even if it doesn’t I consider it safe enough for my purposes. Just had a nice hot shower on the 40° fall day.

Where does the combustion air come from ? I can't find that on their website.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Where does the combustion air come from ? I can't find that on their website.

The combustion air can come from the cabin, same as the combustion air for your propane stove. The exhaust can go out any opening. My propane water heater is, and has been for 32 years, mounted on a bulkhead in the head. It is near the galley and near the shower, reducing wasted hot water. The combustion air comes from the cabin. The exhaust goes out through a hatch in the overhead nearby. These are not issues, regardless of what the specs say, in a 40+ foot boat, even sealed up in the depth of winter. And speaking of "T" fittings in the propane system? I really don't see the problem with this. In my three burner propane stove and oven there are several "T" fittings and no one seems to worry about those.

[john61ct]

Best in extreme cold for combustion to come from outside.

Otherwise for every cu ft you heat, you're pulling in a cold one from outside.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by wingssail

The combustion air can come from the cabin, same as the combustion air for your propane stove. The exhaust can go out any opening. My propane water heater is, and has been for 32 years, mounted on a bulkhead in the head. It is near the galley and near the shower, reducing wasted hot water. The combustion air comes from the cabin. The exhaust goes out through a hatch in the overhead nearby. These are not issues, regardless of what the specs say, in a 40+ foot boat, even sealed up in the depth of winter. And speaking of "T" fittings in the propane system? I really don't see the problem with this. In my three burner propane stove and oven there are several "T" fittings and no one seems to worry about those.

I have no comment as to the safety of these issues, merely pointing out to those that are interested in complying with ABYC that the water heater is not compliant to those standards as it draws combustion air from inside the cabin.
The multiple T-fittings (most often with gear clamps) are not compliant either due to 1. the gear clamps 2. being outside of the propane locker and within the accommodation spaces.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Best in extreme cold for combustion to come from outside.

Otherwise for every cu ft you heat, you're pulling in a cold one from outside.

John, its about condensation and being warm and dry on an extreme cold day. The cold outside air is dryer than the warm, moist, inside air. By using inside air to burn, venting the combustion gases out, it removes moisture from the boat reducing condensation and dampness. Cold air coming in through vents and cracks needs to be heated of course, and in extreme cold you will have a cabin heater, hopefully a diesel space heater, a diesel stove, or a diesel forced air heater like a Webasto or Espar, all of which would take inside air, burn it, heat the cabin, and exhaust the combustion products, including the moisture, outside.

Avoid propane space heaters or using the propane stove for heat, they add moisture to the cabin and propane does not carry very much BTU.

I lived aboard for 10 years in a place where winters were cold, I've had icicles in my shower, and I've made sort of a science of it. You NEED to burn inside air.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

The multiple T-fittings (most often with gear clamps) are not compliant [with ABYC] either due to 1. the gear clamps 2. being outside of the propane locker and within the accommodation spaces.

Not bragging about it, but I've spent most of my life doing stuff people say you can't do. I'm not much of a follower and a lot of rules were created in an ivory tower somewhere.

Based on the use of non-compliant "T's" I'd say that most production boats, which come with Propane stoves, are non-compliant.

My propane "T" is marine quality threaded brass pipe, by the way, and exposed in the cabin where a leak is apparent and can be checked, if not just by the nose, by soapy water and observed easily. Not ABYC either I guess.

A 45' production Beneteau sailboat named Jambo had the deck blown off by an supposedly approved ABYC propane system which leaked inside the boat and was ignited by unknown source. The owner, aboard, was singed, and ears damaged, but otherwise unharmed.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Not bragging about it, but I've spent most of my life doing stuff people say you can't do. I'm not much of a follower and a lot of rules were created in an ivory tower somewhere.

Based on the use of non-compliant "T's" I'd say that most production boats, which come with Propane stoves, are non-compliant.

My propane "T" is marine quality threaded brass pipe, by the way, and exposed in the cabin where a leak is apparent and can be checked, if not just by the nose, by soapy water and observed easily. Not ABYC either I guess.

A 45' production Beneteau sailboat named Jambo had the deck blown off by an supposedly approved ABYC propane system which leaked inside the boat and was ignited by unknown source. The owner, aboard, was singed, and ears damaged, but otherwise unharmed.

Not sure I buy that, I have surveyed hundreds of Beneteau's and have seen only US built that are ABYC compliant. I've never seen a 45' Bene that was built in the US.

If you are happy being non-compliant that's your choice and I won't argue with it. I do believe that there are people with different opinions that would like to know their system are compliant and I believe they are entitled to that information.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Not sure I buy that, I have surveyed hundreds of Beneteau's and have seen only US built that are ABYC compliant. I've never seen a 45' Bene that was built in the US.

I am sure that you are right about the Beneteau. I only presumed that since it was sold in the US it met standards. I am also sure that it was built before the US factory was up and running, so it couldn't have been US built.

I presume you tell ALL of your survey customers (and their brokers) that their propane stoves with multiple burners "T"'d off of a single line are not ABYC A-3 compliant, or is there an exception for that, or just overlooked (I 'm having a hard time getting a look at ABYC A-3)?

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I am sure that you are right about the Beneteau. I only presumed that since it was sold in the US it met standards. I am also sure that it was built before the US factory was up and running, so it couldn't have been US built.

I presume you tell ALL of your survey customers (and their brokers) that their propane stoves with multiple burners "T"'d off of a single line are not ABYC A-3 compliant, or is there an exception for that, or just overlooked (I 'm having a hard time getting a look at ABYC A-3)?

Given the litigious nature of our society. I can't afford to overlook anything. The same people that blast surveyors on this and other forums for being too nit picky will be the first to sue them if they don't mention something like that.
I have an aversion to legal proceedings

If you have not seen it and would like some entertainment check out my Safe Boat Propane System Photos.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by wingssail

......

I presume you tell ALL of your survey customers (and their brokers) that their propane stoves with multiple burners "T"'d off of a single line are not ABYC A-3 compliant, or is there an exception for that, or just overlooked (I 'm having a hard time getting a look at ABYC A-3)?

It's the piping to the appliance, not the appliance. There is an excrpteption for the flex hose to a gimbelled unit.

[jpendoley]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

I'd never heard of this unit before so I looked it up. The instructions say that combustion air must be drawn from outside and exhaust air must be exhausted out the the "RV" but don't show any relevant fittings or provide instructions. How do you accomplish that ? This is one of the reasons the other brands do not meet ABYC requirements.

The exhaust is fan powered and exits via 2” stainless flexible exhaust hose to an ordinary thru hull exhaust fitting. When the water heater is running, the exhaust fan is running so all exhaust is vented overboard.
Combustion air comes from the engine compartment, which is separate from the cabin (more or less). The intake is on the bottom of the unit. Don’t think it’s an issue if installed in the engine room (after all-the diesel draws a lot of combustion air).

[Seman]

We have a 14 ltr Truma propane water heater. 5 minutes in the tropics gives us hot water.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by jpendoley

The exhaust is fan powered and exits via 2” stainless flexible exhaust hose to an ordinary thru hull exhaust fitting. When the water heater is running, the exhaust fan is running so all exhaust is vented overboard.
Combustion air comes from the engine compartment, which is separate from the cabin (more or less). The intake is on the bottom of the unit. Don’t think it’s an issue if installed in the engine room (after all-the diesel draws a lot of combustion air).

Exhaust is not the issue as it is simple to address. Combustion air is the problem. What you describe sounds more promising although drawing combustion air from a non-ignition protected area (as most diesel engine compartments) may be an issue as the standards prohibit appliances in these areas .... they may not have forseen this case. The My ABYC training "suggests" they mean air must be drawn from outside the vessel, including the engine compartment altho' this may be arguable. Sounds more promising but I could not see any means to do that from their website. If you know of something on their site that shows that possibility, I'd appreciate a link.

There is another complicating factor which seems like it might be a grey area if one is aiming for compliance .... LPG appliances must not be in a non-ignition protected atmosphere. Drawing air from a non-ignition protected environment (as most diesel engine compartments are) may be an issue.

As I've said, I have never seen one of this brand, I guess I'll have to see it for myself and make up my my mind as to how I'll write it up.

From what you say, it sounds possible, unlike the other dozen or so brands such as Rinnai or Paloma which clearly are not, cannot be ABYC compliant.

[john61ct]

The installation being ABYC compliant in itself does not make it safe.

Inspection testing, proper maintenance, proactive replacement to a schedule all are required

But all that, only reduce the odds.

British Navy boat blew itself up in the past year or so.

If you really want best safety, no propane at all inside