Southern Ca VS North Carolina

[WindwardPrinces]

Seems to me it would make sense to pick where you wanted to cruise, and then go about figuring out if/how you can afford it.

Both of those cruising areas could be fun in the right hands.

[deluxe68]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Should you choose So. Cal., for its light airs and easy climate, you will also be paying a lot of "sun tax". It is part of the package, and why people have made you think they're not answering the original question.

IMO, I think the benignity of the So Cal climate south of LA is against your becoming comfortable in the ocean. What you'll do is learn to be comfy in so little air that you will feel frightened at 25 knots, and that will not stand you in good stead if you want to cruise the whole world. Imho, if you get to where you are not frightened at 45, you'll by then have the confidence to handle most of what an in season circumnavigation would hand you, maybe griping at the fatiguing nature of it, but without fear for your well being.

If your situation is that you want to liveaboard, no reason to not give the east coast a go. Lotsa sailors there. Way more sailing destinations. Trust me, you really do learn as you go, as long as you keep your mind open to it.

If you're going to live in AZ, and only visit the boat from time to time, and you can contentedly work out the logistics for moving it to So Cal, of course that is more convenient flights wise. To me, the 20,000k or so to have it delivered by truck, well it would pay for a nicer grade of champagne on the east coast. But if you have to live in AZ for a while, then it's a different deal. Your choice. You can learn competency in So Cal, but you'll have to push the local's envelope to do so.

Finally, be aware, you will be required to re-register the boat in another State, and show them that registration before they will take your cash cow for them off their tax rolls. And they will put a lien against you if you don't.
PLEASE HEED THIS WARNING!

We are selling our house and leaving AZ later this year.

[tdoster]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Should you choose So. Cal., for its light airs and easy climate, you will also be paying a lot of "sun tax". It is part of the package, and why people have made you think they're not answering the original question.

IMO, I think the benignity of the So Cal climate south of LA is against your becoming comfortable in the ocean. What you'll do is learn to be comfy in so little air that you will feel frightened at 25 knots, and that will not stand you in good stead if you want to cruise the whole world. Imho, if you get to where you are not frightened at 45, you'll by then have the confidence to handle most of what an in season circumnavigation would hand you, maybe griping at the fatiguing nature of it, but without fear for your well being.

If your situation is that you want to liveaboard, no reason to not give the east coast a go. Lotsa sailors there. Way more sailing destinations. Trust me, you really do learn as you go, as long as you keep your mind open to it.

If you're going to live in AZ, and only visit the boat from time to time, and you can contentedly work out the logistics for moving it to So Cal, of course that is more convenient flights wise. To me, the 20,000k or so to have it delivered by truck, well it would pay for a nicer grade of champagne on the east coast. But if you have to live in AZ for a while, then it's a different deal. Your choice. You can learn competency in So Cal, but you'll have to push the local's envelope to do so.

Finally, be aware, you will be required to re-register the boat in another State, and show them that registration before they will take your cash cow for them off their tax rolls. And they will put a lien against you if you don't.
PLEASE HEED THIS WARNING!

I remember a mentor of mine years ago telling me that anyone can sail in 15-30 knot winds all day long, the really good ones learn to sail well in less than 10 knots. Living my early sailing days on the West Coast, I can say that there were plenty of times, especially north of Point Conception where the red flags were flying often enough to teach something new to anyone.

Though it is safe to argue that conditions anywhere you happen to sail offer a unique set of problems that create a unique set of skills to overcome and even sailing off of San Diego with a surprise Santana wind is enough to scare even the most seasoned sailor.

If you enjoy sailing in consistent winds, then San Fran and Corpus Christie have no equal in the US for prevailing conditions. The OP might consider Corpus as a possibility for many reason as there are plenty of liveaboard slips, the downtown marina is close to the airport, public transportation, and the sailing rarely disappoints.

[jrbogie]

Originally Posted by oldragbaggers

Liveaboard is illegal, not just frowned upon, in Mission Bay. That being said you can rent a transient slip by the month at Driscoll's, but you will pay more because it is a transient slip. And although we always had a spectacular working relationship with the people at Driscoll's, from a strictly liveaboard perspective it isn't the most ideal environment. The boatyard is noisy, dirty, stirs up all kinds of dust which is constantly accumulating on your boat, and there isn't anything much in the way of facilities. They even closed down the cool little lunch place that was once on the backside of the office building. (Darned shame, I loved eating there.) We actually lived aboard there for almost a year, but it wasn't cheap. And about the only "cruising" destinations are going to be south to San Diego Bay, north to Oceanside - Dana Point - Long Beach, or the 110 or so mile trek to Catalina Island. Other than that it's south to Mexico.

The problem with San Diego isn't that you can't find a slip, it's that it's very difficult to find a live aboard slip. Not saying it can't be done, but you may have to spend some time marina hopping and paying the higher transient rates before you settle in someplace. That being said, I don't recall ever thinking our property taxes for our boats were high, but we didn't have a Swan either.

We absolutely loved the weather in San Diego, and having lived in Hawaii we actually preferred the weather in San Diego to Hawaii. Being able to sail all year, and all that dry sunshine was heavenly, not to mention the absence of bugs, especially mosquitos, is huge in my book. We never had a problem with mold or mildew on our boats there. These are all things to me that made a huge difference in the quality of life aboard. We had dinner in the cockpit almost every evening all year long.

On the east coast you have rain, and bugs, and cold, and extreme heat. Here in the Chesapeake Bay we rarely are able to enjoy our cockpit after dark in the marina just because the mosquitos will drive you indoors. At anchor it's much better. But....during the season, short though it is, we love that we can go every single weekend and anchor out and never hit the same anchorage twice because there are so many places to go and things to do.

right you are about liveaboards in mission bay. it's a state park. my bad for forgetting the liveaboard requirement of the op. in fact they allow only 90 overnights per year which i tried to push to the extreme as i spend a couple weeks each month on my boat when i'm not in my home up north. i pushed it for a little more than a year before they busted me so i moved to channel islands harbor. i don't have a livaboard slip there either as only ten percent are allowed but i discussed my needs with the dockmaster beforehand who said 'so you don't want to live aboard you just want to vacation for a couple weeks at a time.' i quickly agreed to his logic but of course my charm gets me lots.

[donradcliffe]

Having grown up in San Diego and spent 40 years in Santa Cruz, I ended up buying an east coast boat with a 67 ft air draft and an 8 ft water draft. I spent a winter in Beaufort NC, then a summer going from Florida to Maine to shake things down, then headed out for a circumnavigation.

The east coast, hands down, offers better cruising than the west coast. NC is cold in the winter and hot and muggy in the summer, but if you follow the seasons north and south, you can get good weather year round. There are far more places to explore and anchor.

The other advantage of moving around is that you can keep ahead of the tax man. I paid exactly zero taxes on my documented boat, registered in Santa Cruz. By the time the California tax people caught up with me, I was able to show them 2 years of receipts to prove that the boat had never been in Cali, and have a letter from them stating that no tax was due. I never stayed on one place long enough to get bothered with property taxes, and that included 6 months in NC.

Given the size of your boat the ICW is not an option, but you have a boat that can handle the coastal passages. One of the nice differences in east coast sailing is that the wind direction changes with the fronts, so if you are patient you almost never have to sail to weather. I've been around Hatteras over half a dozen times, and with patience and good forecasting its never been an issue.

As far as the thread drifter who wants to boast about his prowess on the Chesapeake Bay goes, I saw the highest winds in my circumnavigation in the Delaware by near the nuke plant. A particularly nasty squall hit with about 75 knots in it. I saw it coming long before it got there, moved out of the channel and dropped the sails and the pick. It did tear a dodger seam a bit, but my biggest concern was getting hit by lightning, and it was over in half an hour. I've sailed up and down the Chesapeake a bunch of times, even in the late fall, and it is definitely not the open ocean. It isn't the wind you have to worry about, its the waves the wind makes.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

.......
The east coast, hands down, offers better cruising than the west coast. ..........

I pretty much agree with this. I've sailed ALaska to San Diego on the US west coast and Fla to Cape Bretton the east coast. The east coast is much better cruising than anywhere south of Washington state. And, as you say, much easier to follow the seasons on the east coast. If I was sitting on the west coast in warm areas it would be in Mexico.

[Symphony]

Originally Posted by svHyLyte

Ah... I think you'd better do a bit more research on taxes in California. Boats valued at more than $1350 are subject to personal property tax. Further, a boat owner is also commonly assessed taxes on the value of the "real estate" that underlies his slip or mooring, as we were for a slip at the Alamitos Bay YC. And, there is a registration fee that is payable when a yacht is brought into the state and remains for more than 120 days. And, annual registration fees are also assessed. Note that simply leaving the state does not relieve one of the obligation to pay such taxes until one can establish, "...to the satisfaction of the Taxing Authority..." (usually the County in which the boat was located as to personal property taxes) that the yacht is home ported outside the state. Such determination does not relieve one of liability for taxes assessed before such "determination" which may be months or years after the fact. We left California for Florida in early 1992. I continued to get tax bills and threatening letters from the LA County Tax Assessor until 1994 regardless of having sent them a copy of our boat registration in Florida in '92 and finally copies of the closing statements on the sale of our home in Laguna Beach and our purchase of another in Florida also in '92 as proof we no longer lived there. Never-the-less, the "tax delinquency" appeared on my credit report for years afterward.

this same situation happened to me in the mid 1990s. Had a boat in Alamitos Bay municipal marina, sold it, buyer registered it in Washington state. LA County tax assessor continued to bill me for the ocean water in my old slip as well as my boat which had been sold, and I had to fight the Tax Delinquency from my credit record for years. Good Bye Los Angeles County, moved away 16 years ago.

[deluxe68]

Originally Posted by TacomaSailor

We moved our boat to San Diego from Puget Sound 5-years ago and have lived aboard in San Diego for 2.5 years. Here are some realities of life in SoCal

- Income Tax
California will tax you on everything you earn (pension, investments, earned income) no matter where you earn it. My wife receives a nice pension from 32-years work for a large city in Washington. She never worked a day in California but pays tax on her Washington Pension. If you live in California less than 6-months a year the taxable base is prorated otherwise you pay for all your income. You pay approximately 2.5% on the first $58,000 and 6% on the next $22,000 and 8% on the next $21,000.

- Personal Property Tax
San Diego County is 1.18% of the boat’s value. You pay this even if you are not a resident. When we still kept a home in Washington we paid property tax to San Diego

- Sales Tax
8.75% in San Diego on everything you buy

- Use Tax
You pay about 8.25% sales tax on your boat when you bring it into San Diego unless you can prove (receipt from another tax authority) you paid sales tax (called use tax in CA) to another state

- Almost no mooring balls available for liveaboard usage

- Slip Fee
We pay $770 per month for a 40’ slip

- Liveaboard Fee
We pay an ADDITIONAL $250 per month for the privilege of living on our boat. Most marinas are limited by Coastal Commission rules that limit the number of liveaboards to 10% of the total number of slips

- Very expensive cost of living
Gasoline in San Diego is consistently $0.85 more than anywhere else in the country. Food prices are 10% - 20% more than in Washington State. Restaurants and bars are often tourist prices (unless you know the locals). Apartment rents are exorbitant.

- Expensive utilities
Our marina charges $10 per month to connect to shore power and $0.25 KwH for the electricity. Our bill runs about $85/month Dec - June when we have to run an electric heater when the outside temp drops below 55, which is about 20-nights a month.

- Very expensive boat mechanics
The average low cost mechanic rate is $60/hour and most yards charge $90/hour

- Very strict environmental rules
Almost no useful bottom paint is allowed. You can’t sand over the water. You have to do a super tarp job to work on the boat in a yard…etc

- Very limited “Cruising” and almost no anchorage are available
Almost all sailing you do, outside San Diego Bay, is in the Pacific Ocean with it's swell, wind, fog, big ships, navy ships, fishing boats. There are NO casual anchorages along the California coast from Pt Conception to the Mexican border.

San Diego bay does not allow overnight anchoring without a permit and only 3-days in a month with a permit. Some anchorages only allow anchoring on weekends.

Mission Bay anchorage is only 4-miles North from our slip on Harbor Island- but you have to go 7-miles SSW to clear Pt Loma which makes it a 14-mile trip, six of it in the ocean. There is very limited anchorage room there and a tightly enforced 3-day limit.

Oceanside is the next stopping place going north and is 36NM NW from Pt Loma. There is NO anchorage in Oceanside.

Dana Point is 22 miles up the coast from Oceanside and Newport is another 13 miles up the coast from Dana Pt. There may be some short term anchorage space in each of those harbors.

Catalina Island is 68 to 75 NM WNW across open Pacific Ocean water from Pt Loma, depending on which anchorage you pick on Catalina. There are some “free” anchorages on the island but are quite removed from anyplace to go ashore. Mooring balls are very expensive and often all reserved.

Ensenada is the first stop going south from San Diego and is about 66 NM. But, you need a lot of paperwork to go there and it will cost you $25 or more dollars. And, you and everyone on board need a US Passport. Returning to the US will cost you $27 when you check in at the Shelter Island customs dock. There are no anchorage near Ensenada.

The Coronado Islands are just 18NM south of our slip and used to be a nice day sail or even overnight destination because they have good fishing and diving. But, now you need a Visa and cruising permit to visit the island. You need the cruising permit ANYTIME you sail south of the border, even if you have no plans to touch shore. Oh, and an expensive fishing license if you have any fishing tackle on board. And, that fishing license must be held by every one of your guest. Boat Forfeiture is the penalty.

- The more isolated and exotic island destinations west of Santa Barbara can be a challenge
The anchorages are deep and exposed to many of the winds. The winds in the northern and western islands can really howl for days at a time. The islands are spectacular and very enjoyable for an experienced cruiser

- Every US cruising destination is upwind-upswell
The wind blows from the WNW to NNW about 325 days a year and the swell from the NW is almost always 3’ to 5’ at 10 to 12 seconds. So, any cruise is always into the wind and swell.

- Perfect weather in San Diego
It is never hot nor cold. The wind blows 10 – 20 knots in San Diego Bay almost every afternoon from 1 PM till sunset. You can sail 7NM from Shelter or Harbor Island (location of most of the marinas) to SD1 (the entrance buoy out in the Pacific) and then turn around and sail 12NM to the South Bay and back to your home slip and get about 30 NM of good sailing that varies from biggish ocean swells to 12’ calm water in the South Bay.

We love San Diego liveaboard life and have no plans to leave. But, we do pay a significant 'sunshine tax' for the joy of living here.

Thanks for the long post, lots of info. One thing about the California use tax. We bought the boat in Rhode Island and did not pay sales tax, the boat has been there continuously for more than a year. According to three people I talked to at the California Board of Equalization we would NOT have to pay use tax. Per one persons suggestion I submitted paperwork to get it in writing that we would not have to pay the use tax. They required receipts showing that the boat was used out of California for more than one year after we bought it.

All three people said I would be ok to bring the boat into the state without having to pay the use tax. I sent them a bunch of mooring, maintenance and fuel slips. When I talked to the person handling the Use Tax relief paperwork to see if what I sent was enough she asked for receipts showing use out of CA from July to Sep 2015 (which I originally did not provide). I asked her why she needed something for every single month she replied "because you might have brought the boat into CA for a weekend". When I tried to explain that the boat is 43 feet long and weighs 23,000 lbs she seemed genuinely confused. The paperwork was submitted in August and she said it might be 6 months before they give me the written answer.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by deluxe68

Thanks for the long post, lots of info. One thing about the California use tax. We bought the boat in Rhode Island and did not pay sales tax, the boat has been there continuously for more than a year. According to three people I talked to at the California Board of Equalization we would NOT have to pay use tax. Per one persons suggestion I submitted paperwork to get it in writing that we would not have to pay the use tax. They required receipts showing that the boat was used out of California for more than one year after we bought it.

All three people said I would be ok to bring the boat into the state without having to pay the use tax. I sent them a bunch of mooring, maintenance and fuel slips. When I talked to the person handling the Use Tax relief paperwork to see if what I sent was enough she asked for receipts showing use out of CA from July to Sep 2015 (which I originally did not provide). I asked her why she needed something for every single month she replied "because you might have brought the boat into CA for a weekend". When I tried to explain that the boat is 43 feet long and weighs 23,000 lbs she seemed genuinely confused. The paperwork was submitted in August and she said it might be 6 months before they give me the written answer.

Do let us know if you get a written response.
What is the logic for not charging use-tax on a boat that has been used outside Cal for more than a year? Most states charge a use-tax based on their sales-tax rate while giving a credit for any sales-tax paid to another state. What logic is Cal using to not do this?

[deluxe68]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Do let us know if you get a written response.
What is the logic for not charging use-tax on a boat that has been used outside Cal for more than a year? Most states charge a use-tax based on their sales-tax rate while giving a credit for any sales-tax paid to another state. What logic is Cal using to not do this?

I assume the one year exemption is that they want to encourage people to move to California. The number of California residents buying boats and using the offshore delivery loophole to get out of sales tax has caused officials to closely examine all tax exemption requests. We are looking into Virginia and I wrote them a letter about use/sales tax, they max theirs out at $2,000 for my situation bringing the boat in from another state. I read about Norfolk lowering their property tax rates to nearly zero for boats and the boating businesses there are thriving. There is another area in Virginia that has a very high property tax rate and those businesses are suffering. We are still working on selling the house.

[zeehag]

cali vs carolina--
no slips in cali
no canes in cali
no caribbean in cali
limited cruising in cali.
did i say no slips in san diego?

if i had a home in aridzona and one in rhode island i would sell em both and go to mexico and virgin islands

as for taxes--those are everywhere. what difference does it make.....

[Hudson Force]

I'm spoiled by the easy simple cruising on the US East Coast! When visiting the California coast I was amazed at the bold anchoring in the intolerable rolly seas that we would never need to resort to in the East. ...and then other more protected anchorages that were far from shore and left you sitting in mud at low tide. There are some great anchorages on the California coast. but not nearly the number to choose from for my "cockpit potato" style of easy cruising where I can spend three months cruising from Maine to the Florida Keys and anchor at an average of every fifty miles or so.

[deluxe68]

Originally Posted by zeehag

cali vs carolina--
no slips in cali
no canes in cali
no caribbean in cali
limited cruising in cali.
did i say no slips in san diego?

if i had a home in aridzona and one in rhode island i would sell em both and go to mexico and virgin islands

as for taxes--those are everywhere. what difference does it make.....

There are slips in San Diego. See my previous post.
I don't have a home in Arizona and in Rhode Island.
I am in the process of selling the house in Arizona.
Not every state makes you pay sales/use taxes, read my posts.
Maybe everyone here is rich, but to me $20,000 is a big deal.

[zeehag]

Originally Posted by Hudson Force

I'm spoiled by the easy simple cruising on the US East Coast! When visiting the California coast I was amazed at the bold anchoring in the intolerable rolly seas that we would never need to resort to in the East. ...and then other more protected anchorages that were far from shore and left you sitting in mud at low tide. There are some great anchorages on the California coast. but not nearly the number to choose from for my "cockpit potato" style of easy cruising where I can spend three months cruising from Maine to the Florida Keys and anchor at an average of every fifty miles or so.

you forget that i lived in sin diego f4om 1995 thru april 2011. on boats.
ii repeat
there are no slips in sin diego. there are no inexpensive anythings in san diego. i KNOW what there is,and is not in san diego.
you concerned about cost of living, go to carolina. is cheaper there. all of usa is cheaper than san diego. duhhh.
there are slips in SOUTH BAY nowvpricier ghan ever, there is,2aitingmlist in north bay for unholy pricing.

if you not in r i and az, why then does your info say so.........

[aquadreams]

Originally Posted by Revenue Cutter

Having owned and sailed a Pearson 365 for over a quarter century on the San Francisco Bay, I can attest that once you've learned the area, there is far more to do and see on the east coast. This is especially true when you reach that age of trading the adrenalin rush from getting pounded to hell outside the Golden Gate Bridge for the comfortable sailing without having to worry about kids falling overboard or tossed from their bunks.

I can second that. SF Bay is a great place to learn (winds, tides, currents, fog, cargo ships and ferrys, etc) but after a few seasons you've been to most places multiple times. Outside the Golden Gate you've got only a few destinations - Half Moon Bay to the south (nice harbor, easy anchorage, brew pubs and restaurants), Drakes Bay to the north (no facilities but good anchorage for the predominant NW swell and WNW winds), and the Farallon Islands (no facilities or anchorages). You can do longer trips down to Santa Cruz or Monterey or north to Bodega Bay, or inside the Bay head upriver to Petaluma or Stockton But that's really about it.

Seems like NC would give you more destination options, better path to ease into ocean sailing, the Caribbean close by, and the warm water you mentioned.

For San Diego, the Baha Haha (San Diego to Cabo San Lucas cruisers rally, baba-haha.com) could give you a good intro to ocean sailing (coastal). Then spend time in the sea of cortez before hopping off to Tahiti on the Pacific Puddle jump (Pacific Puddle Jump Official Web Site). May fit into your plans.

Cheers,
Joe