Changes in Atlantic currents

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

A lot of what the proponents of more taxes claim are "subsidies" are no such thing.
...
When these so called "subsidies" to the fossil fuel industries are analysed they actually prove to be similar to the non road use tax rebates.

I won't bore you with another link to the extent to which fossil fuel use is subsidized; it's apparent you won't read them. Suffice it to say that it is still orders of magnitude greater than that put into renewables. If fossil fuel prices reflected the full cost of finding, extracting, transporting and using it, your government wouldn't be having to pick up the tab for cleanups.

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

I won't bore you with another link to the extent to which fossil fuel use is subsidized; it's apparent you won't read them. Suffice it to say that it is still orders of magnitude greater than that put into renewables. If fossil fuel prices reflected the full cost of finding, extracting, transporting and using it, your government wouldn't be having to pick up the tab for cleanups.

And add to that the negative externalities associated with freely dumping waste by-products into the atmosphere. What other industry has that privilege?

[Reefmagnet]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

I won't bore you with another link to the extent to which fossil fuel use is subsidized; it's apparent you won't read them. Suffice it to say that it is still orders of magnitude greater than that put into renewables. If fossil fuel prices reflected the full cost of finding, extracting, transporting and using it, your government wouldn't be having to pick up the tab for cleanups.

The climate change propaganda machine strikes again. Include abandoned mines from the 1800's gold rushes in your count? Nothing dodgy with that. At all.

[Reefmagnet]

Originally Posted by jackdale

And add to that the negative externalities associated with freely dumping waste by-products into the atmosphere. What other industry has that privilege?

So you'll blame the oat farmer for the horse manure overflowing on the streets when we all return to the horse and cart?

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Reefmagnet

The climate change propaganda machine strikes again. Include abandoned mines from the 1800's gold rushes in your count? Nothing dodgy with that. At all.

From what orifice did you prize that nugget? Cos it wasn't part of the link.

So you'll blame the oat farmer for the horse manure overflowing on the streets when we all return to the horse and cart?

Never mind; it's obvious what orifice.

[Reefmagnet]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

From what orifice did you prize that nugget? Cos it wasn't part of the link.



Never mind; it's obvious what orifice.

This snippet from the full report....

"In contrast, approximately 60 large-scale coal mines were in operation and between 15,000 and 17,000 mines of all types had been ‘abandoned’ in Queensland. There are approximately 50,000 abandoned mines in Australia."

"abandoned"...

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Reefmagnet

This snippet from the full report....

"In contrast, approximately 60 large-scale coal mines were in operation and between 15,000 and 17,000 mines of all types had been ‘abandoned’ in Queensland. There are approximately 50,000 abandoned mines in Australia."

"abandoned"...

My God.

Please, show us how they are "including" abandoned mines in their count of coal mines in "care and maintenance", and not just providing some context.

That poor orifice...

[Reefmagnet]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

My God.

Please, show us how they are "including" abandoned mines in their count of coal mines in "care and maintenance", and not just providing some context.

That poor orifice...

Because 50000 = 1 mine per ~500 people in this country. Only an idiot - you excepted of course - would think that is a legitimate number referring to main stream mining operations. Some areas of the country are still a little dangerous to go bushwalking around due to the high chance of falling down an abandoned, open mine shaft.


Edit: To answer you question, mothballed <> abandoned. It is a standard strategy to shutdown mines at times when supply exceeds demand.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Reefmagnet

Edit: To answer you question, mothballed <> abandoned. It is a standard strategy to shutdown mines at times when supply exceeds demand.

Thank you for the attempt at seriousness. The initial link makes the point that the status of "mothballed" has been used as a delaying tactic to indefinitely put off the promised remediation of exhausted coal mines. And then one day they go "oops, can't afford to clean this up", and then you as a taxpayer get the bill. Not a de facto subsidy?

[RaymondR]

Aha, the Keating solution: if you cannot win the argument with rationality and logic, redefine the lexicon.

Those of us who struggle day to day afloat keeping the lights on and the beer cold using wind and solar and battery storage know from long experience that you cannot run a modern civilization on wind and solar only and that the proponents of this are just the modern proponents of another big lie which will require the support of a massive redefinition of the lexicon.

[Reefmagnet]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Thank you for the attempt at seriousness. The initial link makes the point that the status of "mothballed" has been used as a delaying tactic to indefinitely put off the promised remediation of exhausted coal mines. And then one day they go "oops, can't afford to clean this up", and then you as a taxpayer get the bill. Not a de facto subsidy?

Mothballed means mothballed. Operations are suspended and a skeleton crew remains to keep the plant serviceable. The opportunity to perform major maintenance projects quite often occurs during this phase also. Mothballed facilities aren't intended to stay permanently off line.


Here's an example of the kind of mothballing that you're most likely thinking of:


Greenie-inspired Desalination Plant to be mothballed

THE troubled Tugun Desalination Plant is now a $1.2 billion white elephant, with the Bligh Government also forced to mothball hundreds of millions of dollars worth of other plants in a desperate bid to cut water bills.

The Sunday Mail can reveal the Government has also decided to take an axe to the bloated water bureaucracy and sack highly paid water executives under a new stategy to reduce hikes to household bills by $5 next year.

The desal plant on the Gold Coast, which has been plagued by rusting and cracking problems since it opened last year, will be shut down early next year, along with half the $380 million Bundamba treatment plant and the new $313 million plant at Gibson Island.

[jimbunyard]

The sad thing is that most of these fossil-fuel leech supporters probably don't even own stock in the leeches they support... so they're getting screwed in triplicate, and don't even realize it.

[AKA-None]

Mothballed mines and well heads is a cute way of taking all the money out of the ground but not having to fill it back in until the parent company goes bankrupt leaving the mess to the rest of us to clean it up

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Reefmagnet

So you'll blame the oat farmer for the horse manure overflowing on the streets when we all return to the horse and cart?

People sometimes argue that electric vehicles will solve the pollution problems, created by gas-powered cars, the way gas-powered cars solved the pollution problems, caused by the pooping horses they replaced. But that's not actually how the story went, if you include some pertinent historical details.

“Did Cars Rescue Our Cities From Horses?” ~ by Brandon Keim

”In the annals of transportation history persists a tale of how automobiles in the early 20th century helped cities conquer their waste problems. It’s a tidy story, so to speak, about dirty horses and clean cars and technological innovation. As typically told, it’s a lesson we can learn from today, now that cars are their own environmental disaster, and one that technology can no doubt solve. The story makes perfect sense to modern ears and noses: After all, Americans love their cars! And who’d want to walk through ankle-deep horse manure to buy a newspaper?
There’s just one problem with the story.
It’s wrong. ...”

More ➥ https://nautil.us/issue/108/change/d...es-from-horses

[Reefmagnet]

Originally Posted by GordMay

People sometimes argue that electric vehicles will solve the pollution problems, created by gas-powered cars, the way gas-powered cars solved the pollution problems, caused by the pooping horses they replaced. But that's not actually how the story went, if you include some pertinent historical details.

“Did Cars Rescue Our Cities From Horses?” ~ by Brandon Keim
More ➥ https://nautil.us/issue/108/change/d...es-from-horses

Ahh. Revisionist history strikes again!

The Great Horse Manure Crisis of 1894

The streets of London were beginning to poison its people.

But this wasn’t just a British crisis: New York had a population of 100,000 horses producing around 2.5m pounds of manure a day.

This problem came to a head when in 1894, The Times newspaper predicted… “In 50 years, every street in London will be buried under nine feet of manure.”

This became known as the ‘Great Horse Manure Crisis of 1894’.

The terrible situation was debated in 1898 at the world’s first international urban planning conference in New York, but no solution could be found. It seemed urban civilisation was doomed.

However, necessity is the mother of invention, and the invention in this case was that of motor transport. Henry Ford came up with a process of building motor cars at affordable prices. Electric trams and motor buses appeared on the streets, replacing the horse-drawn buses.