Changes in Atlantic currents

[danstanford]

Originally Posted by capn_billl

A megawatt solar array that costs $10's of millions, and only produces usable power only a few hours a day, in no way compares to a 40 gigawatt nuclear plant that produces steady power 24 hours a day 365 days a year.

We would have to cover more than half the planet in solar panels to meet out energy needs at a cost of hundreds of trillions.

This is kindergarten level math.

1000 watts per sq meter, that is how much sunlight reaches the earth at the equator at noon.

Current cells are 20% efficient, even at 100% powering the globe from solar is laughable.

After spending as much on "renewables" as the combined total of ALL forms. If power since the beginning of the industrial age, we STILL get 95% of our power from coal, and oil.

Isn't the biggest problem with the viability of solar the fact that you need batteries of some sort to store the power you create when it is sunny? Form the first time I read about Hydrogen Fuel Cells I thought they were perfect for this job rather than some of the resource intensive conventional batteries.

[team karst]

Originally Posted by capn_billl

A megawatt solar array that costs $10's of millions, and only produces usable power only a few hours a day, in no way compares to a 40 gigawatt nuclear plant that produces steady power 24 hours a day 365 days a year.




….

Thats correct, they dont compare. The largest nuke/gen is less than 2 GW, and none operate with zero down time.

[jeanathon]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

You haven't or won't read the numerous links already posted about the extent to which fossil fuel is subsidized pretty much the world over, so I won't inflict any. It is however worth mentioning the most recent example - the US just releasing some of their strategic reserve because God forbid that Americans, the champions of free enterprise, would have to pay market prices, let alone as much as a European, for their gas (petrol).

Europeans pay twice what Americans do because there is twice the amount of taxes per liter. The price is going up in Europe as well.
Free enterprise got thrown out of the oil market a looonngg time ago, but Biden's political interference with the market by releasing oil from the reserves is a direct result of his earlier political interference by shutting down the keystone pipeline. People here equate his shuttering of the pipeline with the current price increase so he is trying to save his job by moving oil around. My point is it is hardly a fee market.

[jimbunyard]

But doesn't something have to be in the 'market' to be part of the 'market'. (note the lack of a question mark)

Aren't taxes paid based on the price of the commodity. (again)

'Prices' quit reflecting 'supply and demand' 'histrionics' quite a while back.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by jeanathon

Europeans pay twice what Americans do because there is twice the amount of taxes per liter. The price is going up in Europe as well.

It can be argued that the taxes collected help defray some of the actual costs of finding, extracting and using fossil fuels, especially the cleanup of fossil fuel pollution, accidents, and externalities like air pollution, CC, etc. So maybe the Europeans are just better at collecting that up front.

Free enterprise got thrown out of the oil market a looonngg time ago, but Biden's political interference with the market by releasing oil from the reserves is a direct result of his earlier political interference by shutting down the keystone pipeline. People here equate his shuttering of the pipeline with the current price increase so he is trying to save his job by moving oil around. My point is it is hardly a free market.

... I agree that the price of fossil fuels is in many cases influenced by other factors that have little to do with the market. Cheap fuel is a crutch or a bandaid for other problems with some economies. Many fail to recognise this.

[jeanathon]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

It can be argued that the taxes collected help defray some of the actual costs of finding, extracting and using fossil fuels, especially the cleanup of fossil fuel pollution, accidents, and externalities like air pollution, CC, etc. So maybe the Europeans are just better at collecting that up front.

Perhaps you are right and I am just a cynic, but I don't find politicians so noble in general.

[GordMay]

President Joe Biden has announced the release of oil from the US’s strategic stockpile in an attempt to drive down petrol prices and snuff out a crude market rally that the administration has said poses a threat to the global economic recovery.
But the effort to drive down oil prices that have doubled in the past year appeared to backfire, as Brent, the international crude benchmark, closed 3.3 per cent higher at $82.31 a barrel on Tuesday.
In Asia trading on Wednesday, Brent was little changed at $82.34 a barrel, while US marker West Texas Intermediate rose 0.2 per cent to $78.71.
More ➥ https://www.ft.com/content/4e7f2590-...4-eafabdef6534

[AKA-None]

Originally Posted by danstanford

Isn't the biggest problem with the viability of solar the fact that you need batteries of some sort to store the power you create when it is sunny? Form the first time I read about Hydrogen Fuel Cells I thought they were perfect for this job rather than some of the resource intensive conventional batteries.

You don’t need batteries you need energy storage which could be something other than batteries

[danstanford]

Originally Posted by AKA-None

You don’t need batteries you need energy storage which could be something other than batteries

Sure, I was using the term batteries in the most general sense, hence the idea of hydrogen fuel cells as an energy storage system. One could call batteries energy storage as well in this context.

Do you have examples of other systems being used to store power from solar capture systems? I believe I remember someone using solar powered pumps to create hydro energy but I don't know if that is actually being used.

[GordMay]

The first known use cases of Pumped Storage Hydropower [PSH] were found in Italy and Switzerland in the 1890s, and PSH was first used in the United States in 1930. Now, PSH facilities can be found all around the world!

According to the 2021 edition of the Hydropower Market Report, PSH currently accounts for 95% of all utility-scale energy storage in the United States.

America currently has 43 PSH plants, and has the potential to add enough new PSH plants to more than double its current PSH capacity.
➥ https://www.energy.gov/eere/water/pu...age-hydropower

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by danstanford

Sure, I was using the term batteries in the most general sense, hence the idea of hydrogen fuel cells as an energy storage system. One could call batteries energy storage as well in this context.

Do you have examples of other systems being used to store power from solar capture systems? I believe I remember someone using solar powered pumps to create hydro energy but I don't know if that is actually being used.

Compressed air perhaps? https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics...energy-storage
'course on a boat this means filling your SCUBA tanks from your solar and (I'd guess) having a small turbine to generate the energy off the air release?

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Compressed air perhaps? https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics...energy-storage
'course on a boat this means filling your SCUBA tanks from your solar and (I'd guess) having a small turbine to generate the energy off the air release?

I know you are trying to be facetious - but

Hydrostor is the world’s leading developer of Advanced Compressed Air Energy Storage (A-CAES)
projects, enabling the transition to a cleaner, more affordable and more flexible electricity grid.

https://www.hydrostor.ca/

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Current improvements in battery technology are changing the math.

Nuclear might be fine except we still have no good place yet to put the nuclear waste. It is not an insignificant problem.

Red herring always trotted out by the anti nuclear zealots. The French don't have a problem with nuclear waste and neither would the US if it got rid of the stupid ban on reprocessing.

We are having a La Nina weather event in the western Pacific this year which means that it is overcast and raining a lot. I am having to run my engine driven battery charger almost every day and expect to have to do it for weeks into the future. The big lie that the battery proponents are propagating is that we can replace as-required generation ie power stations of some sort to fill the as-required need when the weather dependent "renewables" fail to deliver.

If we are not going to burn hydrocarbons to produce as-required electricity then nuclear is the only option. I will guarantee you mate that when the lights and TV go off and folks get the milk out of the fridge for their morning Weaties and find the milk has gone bad they'll be loudly demanding their old reliable power stations back no matter what they're fired by and to hell with your batteries, windmills and solar panels.

I detailed one example of "redefinition of the lexicon ie a tax rebate becoming a subsidy being used to propagate another big lie ie the carbon and hydrocarbon based fuel industry being heavily subsidized and I'm fairly certain that if I was to work my way through the rest of the list I'd find many more examples.

[danstanford]

Originally Posted by GordMay

The first known use cases of Pumped Storage Hydropower [PSH] were found in Italy and Switzerland in the 1890s, and PSH was first used in the United States in 1930. Now, PSH facilities can be found all around the world!

According to the 2021 edition of the Hydropower Market Report, PSH currently accounts for 95% of all utility-scale energy storage in the United States.

America currently has 43 PSH plants, and has the potential to add enough new PSH plants to more than double its current PSH capacity.
➥ https://www.energy.gov/eere/water/pu...age-hydropower

When I look at the link you have included Gord, it is not the same at all. I believe these use electricity from the grid at lower cost levels to run the pumps to then generate when the power is more valuable.
The solution we are in need of is one that allows us to produce as much power as we can from solar and wind and then to store that power for when we do need it. Since the grid is not a flexible storage medium we need some other way to cope with the supply and demand issues which don't fit the vagaries of these generation methods.

This is not to say this hydro storage 'battery' couldn't work that way but there may be engineering challenges with the model. I know when I saw the concept at work in the Bay of Fundy I was surprised that they couldn't make it work for both incoming and outgoing tides. I left not completely understanding the forces at work but they had to leaves the gates open as the tide came in and generated as the tide fell.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by jackdale

I know you are trying to be facetious - but



https://www.hydrostor.ca/

Actually I was serious, but a bit dubious it exists. I just have never seen it on a scale small enough for a house or boat. Maybe it is out there?