Changes in Atlantic currents

[AndyEss]

Originally Posted by aqfishing

This all boils down to the elephant in the room that no one seems to want to address….

POPULATION GROWTH!!!

Totally.

This also goes into discussions of immigration, education for women, contraception and sexuality, outmoded economic models based on perpetual growth...

[SailOar]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Wasn't this the plot in the movie "Day after tomorrow"?

I saw an article and was left rolling my eyes. If defies logic.

https://globalnews.ca/news/8089039/g...canada-europe/

Originally Posted by aqfishing

Umm, maybe I missed something, fresh water sits on top of saltwater……

Originally Posted by Lodesman

That's my point - how would it prevent the heavier saltwater from sinking?

Hopefully Lodesman can get his eyes to roll back into position before they become permanently lost.

Thermohaline circulation and fresh water

Heat is transported from the equator polewards mostly by the atmosphere but also by ocean currents, with warm water near the surface and cold water at deeper levels. The best known segment of this circulation is the Gulf Stream, a wind-driven gyre, which transports warm water from the Caribbean northwards. A northwards branch of the Gulf Stream, the North Atlantic Drift, is part of the thermohaline circulation (THC), transporting warmth further north to the North Atlantic, where its effect in warming the atmosphere contributes to warming Europe.

The evaporation of ocean water in the North Atlantic increases the salinity of the water as well as cooling it, both actions increasing the density of water at the surface. Formation of sea ice further increases the salinity and density, because salt is ejected into the ocean when sea ice forms.[24] This dense water then sinks and the circulation stream continues in a southerly direction. However, the Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation (AMOC) is driven by ocean temperature and salinity differences. But freshwater decreases ocean water salinity, and through this process prevents colder waters sinking. This mechanism possibly caused the cold ocean surface temperature anomaly currently observed near Greenland (Cold blob (North Atlantic)).[25]

Global warming could lead to an increase in freshwater in the northern oceans, by melting glaciers in Greenland, and by increasing precipitation, especially through Siberian rivers.[26][27]

An AMOC shutdown may be able to trigger the type of abrupt massive temperature shifts which occurred during the last glacial period: a series of Dansgaard-Oeschger events – rapid climate fluctuations – may be attributed to freshwater forcing at high latitude interrupting the THC. 2002 model runs in which the THC is forced to shut down do show cooling – locally up to 8 °C (14 °F).[28]

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by aqfishing

This all boils down to the elephant in the room that no one seems to want to address….

POPULATION GROWTH!!!

Tried telling people not to get the vaccine.. didn't work..

[garyfdl]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Says the man who denies being droll..

Again, I don't think I'm being droll, but as here it would mean having a dry, acerbic, wit... OK

Originally Posted by boatman61

whose countrymen constantly post on here how they can't survive without at least 20 minutes under the shower..

Again with the showers?

Originally Posted by boatman61

No wonder Californian vegetation is so dry as each year you have to drill deeper for ground water for showers, sprinklers and swimming pools as the native plants dry off above.

While I'm not a hydrologist, I worked many years with waterwell drillers and retired from that industry. I can unequivocally say: "you have no idea what you're talking about". Vegetation relies on surface water in the ground, not water from aquifers. Most of CA's water comes from surface water - 'runoff' from rain and melted snow, which is held in above-ground reservoirs (the geology in the region has relatively few underground aquifers). Unfortunately, thanks to climate change, runoff/surface water is no longer the reliable resource it once was. This is also a problem for wells, as surface water ultimately percolates down and recharges the aquifer.

Originally Posted by boatman61

There's to (sic) many links to the mess that they've made of the water situation to post, yet they're trying to promote their 'Green Agenda' with their Renewable Energy policies.. wrong end of the stick methinks..

Not much to debate here, except it isn't just CA/the USA.

Originally Posted by boatman61

Man and Nature can survive without electricity (cold showers ) but take away water and he's screwed.. 40 million times.

ARRRRGH! THAT'S the spirit! Back to the days of iron men and wooden ships! (Fibreglass hulls, aluminum, spars; synthetic lines and sails are for WHIMPS!)

Originally Posted by boatman61

Its not the quantity.. its the quality of the context..

Well then, the quality of my posts far exceeds my expectations. Thank you!

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by garyfdl

Again, I don't think I'm being droll, but as here it would mean having a dry, acerbic, wit... OK




Again with the showers?

Deprived childhood.. only showers available were in the monsoon season.. but it did last two months..

While I'm not a hydrologist, I worked many years with waterwell drillers and retired from that industry. I can unequivocally say: "you have no idea what you're talking about". Vegetation relies on surface water in the ground, not water from aquifers. Most of CA's water comes from surface water - 'runoff' from rain and melted snow, which is held in above-ground reservoirs (the geology in the region has relatively few underground aquifers). Unfortunately, thanks to climate change, runoff/surface water is no longer the reliable resource it once was. This is also a problem for wells, as surface water ultimately percolates down and recharges the aquifer.

Surface water and groundwater are reservoirs that feed into each other. While surface water can seep underground to become groundwater, groundwater can resurface on land to replenish surface water. Springs are formed in these locations and on occasion these become rivers or streams.

Not much to debate here, except it isn't just CA/the USA.

True.. but you were bleating about a fire and drought.. Decent woodlands attract rain..



ARRRRGH! THAT'S the spirit! Back to the days of iron men and wooden ships! (Fibreglass hulls, aluminum, spars; synthetic lines and sails are for WHIMPS!)

You've lost the plot totally, who said anything about boats, just you clowns doing a Don Quixote and tilting for windmills..


Well then, the quality of my posts far exceeds my expectations. Thank you!

I may be wrong, but its rare in our age to find a widely praised person whose own mouth is not the source of that praise.

[garyfdl]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I may be wrong, but its rare in our age to find a widely praised person whose own mouth is not the source of that praise.

Which is why I so much appreciate the recognition, especially from a renowned and esteemed individual such as yourself.

The brief hydrology lesson was in your response to the claim that California has drought/fire problems due to excessive groundwater consumption. That is patently false. The problem is a 20 drought, exacerbated by climate change. The place would still be burning, even if people didn't live there.

The only 'bleating' I see is the obsession over American's shower habits (and your apparent issues with Americans in general).

It's hard for anything to "attract rain" (I'm pretty sure "attracting rain" is not a thing) when there is no humidity.

Sorry my comment about 'iron men and wooden ships was so hard to grasp. So, in an attempt to clarify:" without electricity there would be no aluminum masts and fiber glass boats.

Cheers!

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by garyfdl

Which is why I so much appreciate the recognition, especially from a renowned and esteemed individual such as yourself.

The brief hydrology lesson was in your response to the claim that California has drought/fire problems due to excessive groundwater consumption. That is patently false. The problem is a 20 drought, exacerbated by climate change. The place would still be burning, even if people didn't live there.

The only 'bleating' I see is the obsession over American's shower habits (and your apparent issues with Americans in general).

It's hard for anything to "attract rain" (I'm pretty sure "attracting rain" is not a thing) when there is no humidity.

Sorry my comment about 'iron men and wooden ships was so hard to grasp. So, in an attempt to clarify:" without electricity there would be no aluminum masts and fiber glass boats.

Cheers!

In an attempt to clarify..
Without fresh water there is nothing..

Guess you've never been in very green spaces.. tons of humidity.
Local people in many partially forested regions believe that forests “attract” rain, whereas most modern climate experts would disagree. But a new hypothesis suggests that local people may be correct. The world's hydrological systems are changing rapidly.
A new hypothesis suggests that forest cover plays a much greater role in determining rainfall than previously recognized. It explains how forested regions generate large-scale flows in atmospheric water vapor. Under this hypothesis, high rainfall occurs in continental interiors such as the Amazon and Congo river basins only because of near-continuous forest cover from interior to coast. The underlying mechanism emphasizes the role of evaporation and condensation in generating atmospheric pressure differences, and accounts for several phenomena neglected by existing models. It suggests that even localized forest loss can sometimes flip a wet continent to arid conditions. If it survives scrutiny, this hypothesis will transform how we view forest loss, climate change, hydrology, and environmental services. It offers new lines of investigation in macroecology and landscape ecology, hydrology, forest restoration, and paleoclimates. It also provides a compelling new motivation for forest conservation.

Reminds me of when someone 'discovered' the benefits of organic farming back in the 80's..

[boatman61]

Reasons for change Part 1: Cause and Effect.


https://www.arcgis.com/apps/Cascade/...21485fd5884b00

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by SailOar

Hopefully Lodesman can get his eyes to roll back into position before they become permanently lost.

I appreciate the explanation but my issue isn't so much with the theory, it's with the axiomatically incongruent statement I highlighted.
What the hell, might as well question the theory too. If the newly-melted freshwater comes into the sea, mixes with it dropping the salinity and making it less dense, then wouldn't the high-salinity water moving in with the surface current immediately sink in it, given a much higher density difference? Not to mention, that adding water from melting glaciers, if nothing else, would raise the sea-level locally and gravity would seek to balance that with the mean with downwelling. I could see this as affecting the surface current "downstream" of the freshet, which could potentially affect climate in Europe, but I fail to see how it would stop the current at the front end as this has no direct effect on the driver of the surface current - the wind.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I may be wrong, but its rare in our age to find a widely praised person whose own mouth is not the source of that praise.

Doesn’t undermine his point though. ( and domain expertise is useful !! , or would you prefer to have your heart op done by a car mechanic )

[Exile]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Doesn’t undermine his point though. ( and domain expertise is useful !! , or would you prefer to have your heart op done by a car mechanic )

Or worse, a car mechanic pretending to be a heart surgeon.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Doesn’t undermine his point though. ( and domain expertise is useful !! , or would you prefer to have your heart op done by a car mechanic )

You mean the domain expertise like this..???

Quote: "you have no idea what you're talking about". Vegetation relies on surface water in the ground, not water from aquifers. Most of CA's water comes from surface water - 'runoff' from rain and melted snow, which is held in above-ground reservoirs (the geology in the region has relatively few underground aquifers).

[goboatingnow]

He makes the point that surface dryness isn’t down to the presence or not of aquifers , I don’t see you disproving that.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

He makes the point that surface dryness isn’t down to the presence or not of aquifers , I don’t see you disproving that.

I was not trying to, what I was saying that surface moisture is determined by adequate surface vegetation and posted what is happening in Oregon as a result of their logging and a once moist State is now suffering drought in all but its Northeastern region.. cause and effect.

Oregon rains below average for the rest of the state.. streamflow in March, April, and May was below average for all of Oregon, except for a few creeks and rivers in far-northeast Oregon. Several rivers are at or near record lows for this time of year,

[garyfdl]

Sorry. I've been gone, getting my boat ready for transport.

Originally Posted by boatman61

You mean the domain expertise like this..???

Quote: "you have no idea what you're talking about". Vegetation relies on surface water in the ground, not water from aquifers. Most of CA's water comes from surface water - 'runoff' from rain and melted snow, which is held in above-ground reservoirs (the geology in the region has relatively few underground aquifers).

I was wrong. I stand corrected.

My bad for not vetting the info I was given years ago by drillers at a water well convention.

That said: I stand behind my statement about most of CA's water coming from surface water (as much as 70% in a 'normal' year), and plants relying on surface water as opposed to water in aquifers. Additionally, I was told (years ago) that the Central Valley aquifer was 'in trouble'. So much water has been removed that the area experiences major subsidence, and mineral concentrations are so high that the water in some areas is unusable.

Something else to consider: not all ground water is potable. The city I live in relies on deep wells for the water supply. Around 20 years ago we had to implement about $15 million in improvements to the system, to remove radium and iron bacteria for the water and make it safe to drink. Just to the west of us is an area known for 'arsenic wells' that are unsuitable for consumption. The high school there had to have a new well drilled; the arsenic levels from their original 25 y/o well had exceeded federal guidelines.