Electric Car Economics

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by Neeltje

As Lester implied and Trump has already partially implemented (knowingly or not) with his "Tariffs", we need a Federal sales tax that will even the playing field between those who consume the most and those who can't afford to.

Granted, that probably wouldn't sit well with those who currently buy Chinese wide-screen TVs at Walmart or on Amazon just because they have a wall to decorate, whilst throwing away half the food they buy, but it could end up making our national addiction to overconsumption a "thing" in the long run. You never know.

Spot on - I think sailing cruisers have this right - most of them buy the least amount of stuff to accomplish what they need to accomplish. Whereas the landlubbers just accumulate to accumulate. We really need a lot less stuff than we have.
Sure, someone will say the liveaboard 55 foot catamaran type has a lot of stuff, but I think it is still a lot less than they would have in the McMansion they would otherwise occupy.

[Buzzman]

Exactly MY point, re using the old banger Corolla!

Economic 4-cyl engine that is literally unbrakeable (mine was lucky if it got an oil change every 50K km); aircon; power-steering; effective heater; carries 5 adults (short distances); fuel-injection for reliable starting and operation; retractable seatbelts; disc brakes all round so it will stop reliably (could be an issue for the A-Model Ford....).....

My Corolla is like the first level of (psychologist) Abraham Maslow's "Hierarchy of Needs"...it does the basics, and does them well. So what more do we really "need"?

According to Maslow, we only REALLY need the 'basics':

- water, food, sleep, warmth.

As we progress up the hierarchic scale, we get to:

- security, safety
- intimate relationships, friendships
- prestige and feelings of accomplishment
- achieving one's full potential, including creative activities

So while the A-Model Ford might be OK as far as 'basic' transport goes, you really need something postwar with disc-brakes to add the most basic of 'safety' equipment. Although that could probably include safety belts, as well, which were a late Fifties innovation by Volvo (in the 122 'Amazon').

Rather than leaping straight to the 'prestige and feelings of accomplishment' phase (as most these days seem to do), we really only need the first two levels of 'needs', insofar as reliable transport is concerned.

And given the previous argument around 'embodied energy', driving an old banger could actually be BETTER for the environment than some new all-whistles-and-bells modern car..

Bluetooth? Apple Car play? Daytime running lights?

Do we actually "need" them....???

So maybe one of BMW's "Art Cars" , like the CS coupes painted by various artists back in the day - could potentially be the PERFECT vehicle.

- Powerful, fuel injected engine. Reasonably fuel efficient (compared to a hulking great V8 of the same era)
- Vacuum-assisted disc brakes all round, so relatively safe
- Built like the proverbial masonry outhouse, so in a collision, anything else will come off second best
- Your friends will love it. In fact, it might even earn you some new friends
- Prestigious, showing you've 'achieved'
- And the artistic element embodies your creative fulfillment

'Course, the fly in the ointment is there's only about 7 of them, worldwide, most are in museums, and would cost a BOMB if they came on the open market....

But...don't you now want one....????

LOL

[Tongue very firmly in cheek]

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Capt. Ray

Any examples of these "...crazy European rules"?

Google London Congestion Zone.

London seems to be the most extreme but many cities in Europe are implementing similar rules.

[BarnacleBuck]

Not sure where I am in this conversation.


I have had an EV for the past 2+years. I also have solar on my roof since '09 and a compost heap, rain barrel and worm farm for the same or longer period of time.


EVs are great for short around town trips. Trying to make a trip out of town or a weekend drive is where the wheels fall off the bus. Locating a charging station and assuring that you have enough charge to avoid "range anxiety" is where the biggest angst comes in.


That said, I take my EV on trips around town, but still have another vehicle with a trailer hitch and gas in the tank for longer more purpose driven trips.


Hope this helps?


Best,

[a64pilot]

Just to throw this out there, in the US anyway you can rent inexpensive cars pretty cheap, we often rent from Enterprise
If you only travel occasionally and don’t stay gone long, a rental may make sense

[topo]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I suggest reading up on the subject if you aren't familiar. There are 4 basic drive-train configurations (with a few minor variants):
- Pure ICE: All propulsion comes directly from an internal combustion engine. Electricity use is largely limited to starting the engine, ignition controls and auxiliary devices.
- Hybrid: These come in serial and parallel variations but the primary propulsion comes from the ICE with the batteries used to smooth out the power demand eliminating inefficient low and high demand power output scenarios where the ICE is inefficient.
- Plug-In Hybrid: These cars utilize a battery bank as the primary power source but rather than putting in a massive battery bank to try and compete with Pure ICE on range, they put in a battery bank consistent with typical daily usage: 20-50 miles under battery power. In normal usage, you use exclusively electric but if something comes up and you need to go 200miles, the small ICE just kicks on seamlessly and if necessary a 5 min fill up and you have effectively unlimited range.
- Pure EV: This is a battery only vehicle no ICE included. When the batteries go flat...you are done until you can get a recharge.

I don't know where you got your data but everyone I know who has a Plug-In-Hybrid brags about only using 5-10gal per year because they plug in at night and run almost exclusively on battery.

I suppose it might be a european thing where they put crazy rules out driving the market in ways the buyers don't like. So you have people who want a full function car but they need to drive in an urban congestion rules area, so they really want a Pure ICE but the rules force them into a Plug-In-Hybrid...I could see that as a case where people buy them so they can have full functionality and access to congestion zones.

.

Thank you for your description , very precise . I have only 2 things to discuss.

1) with -30 C tenperature the heating needs inside the car will diminush dramatically the reach in miles between battery charges(thinking of plug in , home charged vehicules) . Taking this into account the PIH seems to be the right choice.

2) I thought the PIH was only a Hybrid, with a larger battery, but this kind of hybrid ( ICE, only used as a generator , to charge the batteries ) is a different kind of car . Becouse the prius can use the ICE for locomotive porpouses but the bmw that you described can not.

Regards
Topo

[a64pilot]

There are different types of hybrids of course.
But I believe the BMW and the Chevy Volt are not Hybrids, they are pure electric vehicles, with an onboard generator, but the ICE cannot drive the vehicle directly, unlike a Prius Hybrid as an example.

My opinion is that currently if your Joe Average in the US a Hybrid like the Prius or a pure EV like the Volt is best for most people, because they are not tied to a charging station.

European uses are different, public transportation is much better and much more available and of course the distances are smaller. Most European nations are smaller than Texas.

[a64pilot]

Look at my local used prices for a Nissan Leaf
https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...Extension=true
Less than $10K for a three or four year old car?
New price $37,000. Am I the only one seeing a problem with this?
How much of that is due to government subsidies / tax breaks?
https://www.nissanattheavenues.com/n...BoCQhIQAvD_BwE

[B23iL23]

Don't know what EV you have but I drive mine (model X) from London to Agde in the south of France. That's a long trip. The on-board nav tells me where to charge, how long to charge and more. Each stop might only be 30/40 minutes, then drive for 200+ miles and stop again. Gives me time to rest, stretch the legs, have a coffee and off again.



With the new chargers you get 150 miles in 10 minutes so it's going to get even easier.

Originally Posted by BarnacleBuck

...

EVs are great for short around town trips. Trying to make a trip out of town or a weekend drive is where the wheels fall off the bus. Locating a charging station and assuring that you have enough charge to avoid "range anxiety" is where the biggest angst comes in.


That said, I take my EV on trips around town, but still have another vehicle with a trailer hitch and gas in the tank for longer more purpose driven trips.


Hope this helps?


Best,

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by B23iL23

Don't know what EV you have but I drive mine (model X) from London to Agde in the south of France. That's a long trip. The on-board nav tells me where to charge, how long to charge and more. Each stop might only be 30/40 minutes, then drive for 200+ miles and stop again. Gives me time to rest, stretch the legs, have a coffee and off again.



With the new chargers you get 150 miles in 10 minutes so it's going to get even easier.

Vast majority of the world cannot be driven from one charging station to the other, cause they just don’t exist.

I’ve not looked, but I have never seen one, not even one single charging station in my life, except in pictures. I have never seen a sign on any highway that says this exit to a charging station either.
But there is a gas station on every corner, and almost every exits lists several gas stations that are available.

[B23iL23]

They are there. These are just the Tesla chargers. There are about the same independent ones not shown.


When you enter your destination on the map, it knows where all the chargers are , knows the power left in your battery, the range , the traffic and it suggests where and when to charge along the way and for how long at each stop. You choose a location and it shows how many stalls, how many are in use and so on. You arrive, plug in, go for a coffee and your phone alerts you when the charging it done. Unplug and off you go.



https://www.tesla.com/en_IE/findus#/...er&name=Europe

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Vast majority of the world cannot be driven from one charging station to the other, cause they just don’t exist.

I’ve not looked, but I have never seen one, not even one single charging station in my life, except in pictures. I have never seen a sign on any highway that says this exit to a charging station either.
But there is a gas station on every corner, and almost every exits lists several gas stations that are available.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

There are different types of hybrids of course.
But I believe the BMW and the Chevy Volt are not Hybrids, they are pure electric vehicles, with an onboard generator, but the ICE cannot drive the vehicle directly, unlike a Prius Hybrid as an example.. . .

The BMW and Volt with Range Extender are series hybrids -- no mechanical connection between the ICE and the wheels.


I don't know about the Volt, but the BMW REX makes about 30hp and will move the car in most regimes (not flat out on the highway though). The biggest issue with it is that the fuel tank is only 9 liters (2 1/2 US gallons or so).


But that is fine for places which have a reasonable number of charging stations. You can drive for example all the way across Scandinavia from Helsinki to Oslo without every being more then 50km or so from a charging station. I don't know about the U.S., but in Europe the infrastructure for pure electric cars is developing pretty fast.

[ranger58sb]

I haven't been looking on purpose, but I've ever only seen a couple charging stations -- can't even remember where -- here in the US. Think it might have been inside a parking garage...

I gather these are different from a household 115VAC plug... What do most owners use? A dedicated charger of some sort, newly added to their home electrical system? Or just a household plug? Or...?

-Chris

[B23iL23]

U.S has a great network of chargers if going long distance. For a commute the best way is to charge at home - A NEMA 14-50 (usually for a washing machine in a garage) will charge a big Tesla battery in about 10 hours from empty. So plug in when you come home and next morning you have a full tank.

If you get an EV with a big enough range and your commute is not huge then charge only once a week. My commute is 15 miles each/day (180/190 miles a week) but my range is around 250 so I charge once every week.

Originally Posted by ranger42c

I haven't been looking on purpose, but I've ever only seen a couple charging stations -- can't even remember where -- here in the US. Think it might have been inside a parking garage...

I gather these are different from a household 115VAC plug... What do most owners use? A dedicated charger of some sort, newly added to their home electrical system? Or just a household plug? Or...?

-Chris

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

I haven't been looking on purpose, but I've ever only seen a couple charging stations -- can't even remember where -- here in the US. Think it might have been inside a parking garage...

I gather these are different from a household 115VAC plug... What do most owners use? A dedicated charger of some sort, newly added to their home electrical system? Or just a household plug? Or...?

-Chris

Most autos I believe can charge from a regular 110V plug, however it’s limited to either 15 or 20 amps, so your dribbling in the charge.
You pretty much have to install a 220V actual charger, if you know how and have the available capacity in your box etc. I believe it can be done for only $300 or $400. I have also heard of it costing $3,000 to have professionally installed by a liscensed electrician, and I assume that price likely included an additional panel box etc.

I see no reason why you couldn’t plug it into a drier plug, I wired my Fathers Motorhome that he used for Hemodialysis that way, that would make it portable and of course it’s not installed so you may get around codes that way.

However having to use a 50 amp 220V power source for up to ten hours ought to give you an idea of just how much power we are talking about, it’s not trivial.

Average US house uses 850 KWH per month, it takes I believe 50 KWH to charge a Tesla Model 3 battery. Depending on how often you have to charge it, it’s going to require significantly more production of power to charge these things if they get much of a market share.