Electric Car Economics

[B23iL23]

Very little. I drive from London to South of France in winter and summer and see virtually no impact. Hills do impact but then you gain on the downhill parts. Drove from Nice in blazing sunshine, into italy, over the Alps with snow on the ground and back to London.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

I think there's a bit more to it than just name; I've heard that they are well-built, reliable and dependable (within their range limitations), and great to drive.


True story: in the 90s, the president of the small company I worked for could drive just about anything he wanted. He had a big Mercedes for while, then he had a big Jag (...hated it for the nonstop trips to the shop), bought a Lexus... and adored it. Loved the way it drove and handled, overall quality of fit and finish, reliability. Bought a second for his wife, and did an ad for the dealer.



The point - sometimes there are genuine attributes behind an iconic brand.

You realize of course in your example, that he Merc and Jag were the Iconic brands and not the Lexus?

Maybe now for the Lexus, but not so much in the 90’s.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

You realize of course in your example, that he Merc and Jag were the Iconic brands and not the Lexus?

Maybe now for the Lexus, but not so much in the 90’s.

Sure, and Teslas were a big question mark when they first appeared.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Sure, and Teslas were a big question mark when they first appeared.

I think they still are, time however will tell the tale.
Many trends that I thought would have died before now are still going strong. Trends seem to last a lot longer now, is it social media?
I have no idea.
If I could forecast trends, I’d likely have a whole lot more money than I do now.

[Buzzman]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

...If I could forecast trends, I’d likely have a whole lot more money than I do now.

LOL... you and me and everyone else, too probably.

Allegedly that's why Warren Buffett earns the Big Bucks.

The early Lexuses (Lexi..??) were very good cars. Did everything well enough.

Not too sporty, not too 'luxe', not too barge-like, not too thirsty....but had all the bells and whistles of the 'Big Four' (Merc, Rolls, Jag, Beemer) without the price tag.

They were essentially an upmarket Crown with better driving dynamics. So you got Merc or Rolls levels of luxury for a BMW price.

I remember them highlighting the 'boot large enough for a set of golfclubs, or two' as being probably a good marketing strategy, aimed at the appropriate target market.

So I guess the early Lexus marketing guys were pretty good at predicting trends....

[a64pilot]

I’d agree the early Lexus was a very good buy, as was the Benz back in the 60’s and 70’s.
Then as with everything the price increase so that it’s not as good a value as it once was.
The early Honda’s and Toyota’s were very good buys too.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

I think there's a bit more to it than just name; I've heard that they are well-built, reliable and dependable (within their range limitations), and great to drive.

The point - sometimes there are genuine attributes behind an iconic brand.

I haven't heard much about reliability problems with the other EVs, so I'm not buying the idea that teslas are so much better.

Most iconic brands (with some history not 10-15yrs of existence) were exceptional at one time. Cadillac back in the day was a high performance car (similar for Harley Davidson motorcycles). That got people excited about them...then as they fell behind in performance, they lived off the iconic brand building bloated monstrosities for the middle age guys who remembered the good old days but wanted comfort not performance...after the old guys died off, the names became synonymous with bloated monstrosities. GM has tried halfheartedly to re-inject performance into Cadillac. Harley Davidson still looks like it's on the way out if they don't do something drastic.

But other than hype, I don't see teslas being that much more reliable than any other brand. They've had their share of teething pains (bumpers falling off) but they have a rabid fan base (most who have never so much as taken a test drive) who will defend them as the best ever no matter what.

[B23iL23]

I have my Model X for 2+ years now and reliability has been great. They did replace a drive shaft as part of an upgrade or replacement program but that only took a day. Mine was fine but got it changed during the service at their suggestion.



Apart from that I've replaced the brake pads after 30k miles. Again they weren't bad ( I use regen a lot) but I decided to get them changed anyway. Couple of air filters and top up of some fluids, and one wiper blade.

Originally Posted by valhalla360

...
But other than hype, I don't see teslas being that much more reliable than any other brand. They've had their share of teething pains (bumpers falling off) but they have a rabid fan base (most who have never so much as taken a test drive) who will defend them as the best ever no matter what.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by B23iL23

I have my Model X for 2+ years now and reliability has been great. They did replace a drive shaft as part of an upgrade or replacement program but that only took a day. Mine was fine but got it changed during the service at their suggestion.

Apart from that I've replaced the brake pads after 30k miles. Again they weren't bad ( I use regen a lot) but I decided to get them changed anyway. Couple of air filters and top up of some fluids, and one wiper blade.

Replacing a driveshaft on a 2yr old car isn't impressive in the modern world.

I have an F250 I bought 10yr old with 160k miles and have less maintenance on it than you describe in the 2yr I've owned it.

Yes, usually get 30-40k miles out of a set of brake pads and a $25 oil change once or twice a year that takes 20min at the oil change place.

I'm not saying teslas are maintenance problems...but neither are the competition. Elite brands usually get there not by matching the competition but by beating it by a wide margin. Tesla's status seems to be almost exclusively based on hype.

[B23iL23]

It wasn't a usage failure. It was design issue where sometimes it would get loud and knock at high load (high acceleration). Mine didn't.



They decided to swap it out on all Model X's regardless of whether it had the problem of not.


Nothing to do with being a 2 year old car.

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Replacing a driveshaft on a 2yr old car isn't impressive in the modern world.

I have an F250 I bought 10yr old with 160k miles and have less maintenance on it than you describe in the 2yr I've owned it.

Yes, usually get 30-40k miles out of a set of brake pads and a $25 oil change once or twice a year that takes 20min at the oil change place.

I'm not saying teslas are maintenance problems...but neither are the competition. Elite brands usually get there not by matching the competition but by beating it by a wide margin. Tesla's status seems to be almost exclusively based on hype.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by B23iL23

It wasn't a usage failure. It was design issue where sometimes it would get loud and knock at high load (high acceleration). Mine didn't.

Point still stands, that is a flaw in the supposedly best of the best. A fairly major one at that.

Again not saying tesla is horrible but certainly doesn't demonstrate a superior vehicle that would justify higher resale values.

[B23iL23]

Ok You are either trolling, or an incredibly naive person.



Do Mercs, BMW's, Lexus or any of the other top brands don't replace parts that may not meet their design requirements. Of course they do.



What planet are you on?

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Point still stands, that is a flaw in the supposedly best of the best. A fairly major one at that.

Again not saying tesla is horrible but certainly doesn't demonstrate a superior vehicle that would justify higher resale values.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by B23iL23

Ok You are either trolling, or an incredibly naive person.

Do Mercs, BMW's, Lexus or any of the other top brands don't replace parts that may not meet their design requirements. Of course they do.

What planet are you on?

I believe you are losing track of the point.

For the 3rd time, I'm not saying teslas are unreliable.

But if you want to claim the premium brand status based on reliability, you don't just match everyone else, you have beat them and beat them by a wide margin. Even cheap brands of modern cars don't have a lot of reliability issues...so that doesn't explain the resale value difference.

So barring some other explanation, the idea that the higher resale values are mostly based on hype still stands up as you haven't shown substantially superior reliability.

[a64pilot]

You can make no sense of social pressures on the cost of an item.
Quality or value, performance etc really don’t have anything to do with it.
I have this exact watch in our safety deposit box. It was my Father’s. My Mother bought it for him back I believe in the 60’s when he Solo’d. For a Rolex it was a cheap watch being made from Stainless Steel etc., but it was a pilots watch so she bought it for him.
https://www.essential-watches.com/wa...nda-Dial/49621

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by B23iL23

. . . Do Mercs, BMW's, Lexus or any of the other top brands don't replace parts that may not meet their design requirements. Of course they do. . . .

A lot of expensive cars are not only not clearly superior to ordinary cars, but are far worse in terms of reliability. I've owned a bunch of BMW's over many decades starting in the '70's, and some of them have been great, some average, and one was just awful, worse than any Lada. I won't even talk about my last car (a Range Rover), or my business partner's Maserati . . . .



I don't care for Teslas or the hype around them, nor for the character behind them, but I don't think that Teslas would have to greatly superior to ordinary cars in terms of reliability, to be considered "premium". That's not what "premium" is based on.