Electric Car Economics

[Marc1]

This thread about EV is no different from all the other threads on the subject in any other forum you care to visit.
It highlights not the technical side of things but the religious attitude of those that climb the marble tower, to virtue signal feverishly and preach down to the commoners, who dare to drive a pickup truck or an SUV ( how dare they?)

All this commoners should be converted to driving a pissy 500 kg car charged overnight by a pocket size solar panel stuck to the the window of the rented unit with duct tape and an extension cable two stories below.

And if you disagree, you are a pro coal guy, paid by the oil industry or the mining industry and should be ashamed of yourself

Fortunately, and with some exceptions like Cuba or North Korea, consumers decide what car they like to drive and the fuel they will use to go around.

The day is near, when it will be official that CO2 is harmless and in fact beneficial and that we have been conned for the last 20 years ... or is it 30? into believing this pseudo religion that is costing us trillions and making a handful of people rich.

By then it is very likely that a new engine will be invented that delivers energy from an inert substance safely. And the fanaticism and religion charged fury over batteries, and solar, and wind and the rest of the garbage will finally be moot.
And not soon enough.

Now where is that replacement battery for the remote control of my Hummer H1 ?

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by lordgeoff

Pleased to see you have stopped digging the hole.

[ ]

How did the "read up on" go?
Anyhow. Did some quick calculations to assist you.
Should be reasonably correct but no promises.
First up Lake “read up” on the difference between “MWh” and “MW” and then come back to the thread?
HINT.
The Hornsdale Battery Reserve has storage capacity of 100MWh (actually 129MWh but let’s use 100MWh for simplicity).
This means the battery does not generate any electricity it merely stores in this case enough electricity to provide 100MW for 1 hour or variations thereof.

Yes. it's a battery. Storage, not generation. Got it.

Now Lake you said our "electrical system" is 50,000 MW which I presume you mean name plate capacity of the various generating components of the Grid.
Just as an fyi the actual electricity generation in Australia is about 180,000 GWh or 180Million MWh.

Good so far. I quoted generating capacity; you're discussing energy consumed over a year. Apples and apple-cobbler, basically. But I can follow it.

Generators rarely operate to their nameplate particularly Windmills and Solar. (Daylight/night time/ No wind) so lets compare apples with apples and accept the electricity generated into the South Australian Grid is about 13,000GWh over a year. Not sure if that includes imported electricity or rooftop solar generation. Anyhow 13,000GWh is good enough for this exercise.
So 13,000GWh is 13,000,000MWh or 35,000MWh per day or 1,500MWh each hour.
So during a SA Blackout the Hornsdale Power Reserve battery can provide the Baseload Grid with enough electricity to keep it running for about 4 minutes. (1,500/100 is 1/15th of an hour or 4 minutes)

Lemme stop you right there. Of course one Tesla battery isn't going to hold up the whole SA grid. That's not its purpose. It's to briefly store extra generated energy from intermittent sources like wind and solar to be released when those sources are not generating. To help make renewables more dependable.

and secondly, the majority of blackouts were distribution problems, not lack of capacity, right?

...
Now Lake you have suggested 1,000 Hornsby Battery Reserves.

No, YOU did. I simply argued that 1000 such batteries could easily supply the whole grid. I didn't say for how long.

...
The irony is the Baseload Grid, mostly Coal and other Fossil Fuels, already produce enough Grid quality electricity to meet day to day needs in Australia (plus a buffer supply) including Peak Loads.

There's the bullseye. You're a pro-coal guy looking to find any issue with renewables.

and please stop saying "baseload grid" when you mean baseload generation capacity. It makes you look silly.

[lordgeoff]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Yes. it's a battery. Storage, not generation. Got it.

Good so far. I quoted generating capacity; you're discussing energy consumed over a year. Apples and apple-cobbler, basically. But I can follow it.

Lemme stop you right there. Of course one Tesla battery isn't going to hold up the whole SA grid. That's not its purpose. It's to briefly store extra generated energy from intermittent sources like wind and solar to be released when those sources are not generating. To help make renewables more dependable.

and secondly, the majority of blackouts were distribution problems, not lack of capacity, right?

No, YOU did. I simply argued that 1000 such batteries could easily supply the whole grid. I didn't say for how long.

There's the bullseye. You're a pro-coal guy looking to find any issue with renewables.

and please stop saying "baseload grid" when you mean baseload generation capacity. It makes you look silly.

No Lake. I am not a Pro Coal or Fossil Fuel Guy. I admit I am compromised by the Fossil Fuel Industry. I actually buy their product on a regular basis.
Every week or few I put $50 of diesel into my tank. And about $1,000 of diesel in my boat each cruising season.
I am though ANTI Virtue Signallers who spout uninformed nonsense.
Lake. Go back to your original posts and see how silly they look.
Keep an open mind sunshine. Be skeptical. It is refreshing and invigorating.
Don’t just regurgitate nonsense anybody can read.
Lake there is a Grid. Baseload is critical to that Grid. “Renewables” have brought zip to the table except a slow train wreck and escalated electricity prices.
Cheers.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by lordgeoff

Don’t just regurgitate nonsense anybody can read.

I'll take that as a compliment since your initial contribution was nonsense that only a64 could read.

Lake there is a Grid. Baseload is critical to that Grid.

Finally. You've got that straight. yay.


edit - on a serious note, there really is a big problem with politics and electricity generation in Australia and I do hope it gets sorted soon. it won't be solved by people huddling in their corners blaming the other corners. Ditch the politics; it's an engineering & economics problem with some very real side concerns about sustainability and enviromental consequences.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Marc1

This thread about EV is no different from all the other threads on the subject in any other forum you care to visit.
It highlights not the technical side of things but the religious attitude of those that climb the marble tower, to virtue signal feverishly and preach down to the commoners, who dare to drive a pickup truck or an SUV ( how dare they?)

All this commoners should be converted to driving a pissy 500 kg car charged overnight by a pocket size solar panel stuck to the the window of the rented unit with duct tape and an extension cable two stories below.

And if you disagree, you are a pro coal guy, paid by the oil industry or the mining industry and should be ashamed of yourself

Fortunately, and with some exceptions like Cuba or North Korea, consumers decide what car they like to drive and the fuel they will use to go around.

The day is near, when it will be official that CO2 is harmless and in fact beneficial and that we have been conned for the last 20 years ... or is it 30? into believing this pseudo religion that is costing us trillions and making a handful of people rich.

By then it is very likely that a new engine will be invented that delivers energy from an inert substance safely. And the fanaticism and religion charged fury over batteries, and solar, and wind and the rest of the garbage will finally be moot.
And not soon enough.

Now where is that replacement battery for the remote control of my Hummer H1 ?

You seem pretty wound up by all this. You should take a chill pill.

[Marc1]

Originally Posted by Adelie

You seem pretty wound up by all this. You should take a chill pill.

And when the other has no argument, he/she/?/ argues racism, bullying or take a chill pill.
All so predictable

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Marc1

And when the other has no argument, he/she/?/ argues racism, bullying or take a chill pill.
All so predictable

Well Marc1 I have not taken any position in this thread on anything other than your being wound up and taking it all rather seriously.

The suggestion that you take a "chill pill" was quoting advice you gave others. Little hypocritical to be claiming I was bullying you by using it.

Originally Posted by Marc1

It is always a lot of fun reading through the threads that deal with batteries and solar of any description. It is like a group of priest from different religions get into a punch up for God.
"Diesel stench", ban fuel, and many more shouting from the marble towers of virtue signalling to the low life scumbags who use diesel, or dare I say 2 stroke (oh my!)

I say grow up and take a chill pill. If you think you are oh so virtuous for using electric motors, good for you.
Meantime in the real world, a lot of low life worms who craw on this earth use diesel to get around.

[Buzzman]

Dunno if anyone's seen this - I was tempted to put it on the New Joke Thread, but I figured you guys would appreciate it more.

I think the caption should be: "The definition of irony"

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

I'll take that as a compliment since your initial contribution was nonsense that only a64 could read.

Finally. You've got that straight. yay.


edit - on a serious note, there really is a big problem with politics and electricity generation in Australia and I do hope it gets sorted soon. it won't be solved by people huddling in their corners blaming the other corners. Ditch the politics; it's an engineering & economics problem with some very real side concerns about sustainability and enviromental consequences.

The entire problem with electricity generation in Australia is politics.

When a bunch of left wing, nihilist, zealots combined with wind and solar power entrepreneurs and a misguided media to convince governments to subsidize renewables thereby completely corrupting the economics of power generation instead of allowing market forces to dictate their introduction it was inevitable that the problems we are now experiencing would occur.

Australia has a plethora of electric networks which ranges from the massive east coast network, one of the largest in the world, to micro networks with a few consumers to experiment on. Which did they choose to mess with - the massive east coast one.

There is one network servicing about 1,600 people on King Island in Bass Strait where a power company chose to attempt to switch over completely to solar and wind. Their experiences in doing so makes interesting reading. It included batteries and inertia wheel storage to overcome network stability problems and whilst they have managed to make it work it still includes diesel backup generators.

Without massive base load generators such as nuclear we are dreaming in imagining that we can change our domestic and industrial power needs over to renewables let alone the other primary consumer which is the transport sector including personal transport.

There are serious unresolved issues related to nuclear including waste and weapons use however it is the only practical technology which could de-carbonize the power sector.

The majority of us will eventually be driving electric vehicles, and the relative unit cost of them will inevitably be far less than the IC vehicles we drive today, because we are going to run out of cheap liquid hydrocarbons to put in the fuel tanks. Whether it's fission or fusion it will be nuclear sourced.

[Marc1]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Well Marc1 I have not taken any position in this thread on anything other than your being wound up and taking it all rather seriously.

The suggestion that you take a "chill pill" was quoting advice you gave others. Little hypocritical to be claiming I was bullying you by using it.

Yes, sarcasm is often lost online, not to mention accuracy of alleged claims.
Then again, from your location I can see you live in the distant past.

[Marc1]

Originally Posted by Buzzman

Dunno if anyone's seen this - I was tempted to put it on the New Joke Thread, but I figured you guys would appreciate it more.

I think the caption should be: "The definition of irony"

Actually, the best example of irony should be Bob Brown's lifelong lobby for more wind turbines, calling everything else the big polluters yet ... when someone wants to erect a wind turbine near his place, he is all up in arms about it and turned from full time wind farms promoter to part time amateur ornithologist, he is now defending the birds that are killed in the thousands by wind turbines.
Oh my ... so the turbines only kill birds in Tasmania?
It certainly merits the digitus impudicus or ... flip this lot the bird!

[lordgeoff]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

The entire problem with electricity generation in Australia is politics.

When a bunch of left wing, nihilist, zealots combined with wind and solar power entrepreneurs and a misguided media to convince governments to subsidize renewables thereby completely corrupting the economics of power generation instead of allowing market forces to dictate their introduction it was inevitable that the problems we are now experiencing would occur.

Australia has a plethora of electric networks which ranges from the massive east coast network, one of the largest in the world, to micro networks with a few consumers to experiment on. Which did they choose to mess with - the massive east coast one.

There is one network servicing about 1,600 people on King Island in Bass Strait where a power company chose to attempt to switch over completely to solar and wind. Their experiences in doing so makes interesting reading. It included batteries and inertia wheel storage to overcome network stability problems and whilst they have managed to make it work it still includes diesel backup generators.

Without massive base load generators such as nuclear we are dreaming in imagining that we can change our domestic and industrial power needs over to renewables let alone the other primary consumer which is the transport sector including personal transport.

There are serious unresolved issues related to nuclear including waste and weapons use however it is the only practical technology which could de-carbonize the power sector.

The majority of us will eventually be driving electric vehicles, and the relative unit cost of them will inevitably be far less than the IC vehicles we drive today, because we are going to run out of cheap liquid hydrocarbons to put in the fuel tanks. Whether it's fission or fusion it will be nuclear sourced.

Pretty much spot on with your comments Raymond.
A few comments I would perhaps not agree. I think the theory of Peak Oil is not really relevant. The exploration seems to surge when more supply is needed. There are many discovered and untapped supplies. Even in Australia. Gas is abundant pretty much everywhere so it will be around for as long as it is needed. New clean energies, Thorium, Fusion Hydrigen are abundant and just await the technology to exploit. The current “renewables” will be a case of “......what was your generation thinking Granddad. You had so many choices and you picked Wind and solar...? wtf”
Australia’s Baseload Grid is steadily imploding with 24/7/365 electricity generation being replaced by intermittent unreliable and not fit for purpose wind/solar. And $100million (4minute) Baseload capacity are exceptionally good...only for Elon🤪.
Many €Billions yet to be pissed up against the wall before the penny drops. Germany is seeing the folly of Energyweinde.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by AKA-None

Why does everyone assume that ALL electric generation must come from a centralized system?

You can build isolated off grid systems but except for installations where access to the grid is inordinately expensive, they are almost always more expensive than a centralized system. Our boats with solar systems are good examples of where it makes sense.

Once you connect up to the grid, you owe a fair share for keeping that grid up if you are going to use it. The grid and baseload supply are the bulk of the cost of providing electricity to your house...even if you only use a few KWH per year those costs are still there. The fuel is actually not the bulk of the cost.

Solar/wind with battery can provide baseload capacity but with the added cost of batteries, it's massively more expensive than solar/wind by itself or traditional baseload sources.

In the case of Austrailia, they touted Tesla batteries as cheaper but that was only after distorting the market so badly that baseload power costs went thru the roof. The Tesla baseload power is still drastically more expensive than the costs before the eco-experiment started.

[lordgeoff]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

You can build isolated off grid systems but except for installations where access to the grid is inordinately expensive, they are almost always more expensive than a centralized system. Our boats with solar systems are good examples of where it makes sense.

Once you connect up to the grid, you owe a fair share for keeping that grid up if you are going to use it. The grid and baseload supply are the bulk of the cost of providing electricity to your house...even if you only use a few KWH per year those costs are still there. The fuel is actually not the bulk of the cost.

Solar/wind with battery can provide baseload capacity but with the added cost of batteries, it's massively more expensive than solar/wind by itself or traditional baseload sources.

In the case of Austrailia, they touted Tesla batteries as cheaper but that was only after distorting the market so badly that baseload power costs went thru the roof. The Tesla baseload power is still drastically more expensive than the costs before the eco-experiment started.

South Australia is always a good Case Study. The geniuses South AustralianPremier Weatherill and Treasurer Koutsantonis pretty much own the SA Baseload Grid debacle.
Step One. Shut down coal baseload and demolish said baseload.
Step Two. Purchase 3rd World diesel generators to provide supply.
Step Three . Encourage and subsidise wind and solar.
Step Four. Buy a 100MWh battery from Elon to "condition" the rubbish wind/solar and provide grid backup. (BTW a 100MWh Elon Battery supplies about 4 minutes of South Australias baseload average needs.....)
Step Five. As the wind and solar are in remote areas the Traditional Grid has to be up graded to carry the electricity from Neverland to far away consumers.
Step Six. During 10am to 2pm there will soon be excess solar (and wind) generation so traditional coal baseload will exit that market. First to go will be more of the La Trobe Valley Brown Coal Baseload generation.
Watch this space......
What could possibly go wrong.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Marc1

Yes, sarcasm is often lost online, not to mention accuracy of alleged claims.
Then again, from your location I can see you live in the distant past.

Sarcasm? Is that what that was?

Funny, it looked so much like self-serious tilting at windmills a la Don Quixote. I stand corrected.