England Headed to EV to Grid as well as Grid to EV

[goboatingnow]

QI attended a major presentation on V2G given by a US Professor who reported on real trials in Denmark and Belgium

The whole economics made no sense. In essence grid buys V2G power at peak wholesale rates. But has to recharge the car at full retail ( is it must compensate the car owner so that the car can be recharged and the car owner make a profit ) the car may not be recharged at the equipped v2G site either.

All the trials worked because the car owners were paid more then the oG g perator was paid by the grid. Thats not sustainable.

Selling power to the grid fundementally only works if the power generation is lower then the spot price at which the resulting power is sold. Since the car owner hasn't access to wholesale recharging cost electricity how can they be compensated

Where v2g has potential is V2H , vehicle to house. Is my car acts as a power wall.

[Ericson38]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Why is the price of electric so high in California? to many air conditioners perhaps

How do you generate that electricity or is it bought in?

Pete

Brought in, and we pay high marginal rates to get it from Oregon and Nevada. State is shutting down all nuclear plants, there are only 2-3 left. Also shutting down El Segundo natural gas plant and one in Redondo Beach.

Calif does not export electricity.

State also imports almost half its crude oil from Middle East for its refineries.

https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-repor...nia-refineries

[Ericson38]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Porsche Cayenne urban cycle is 15mpg !!

Right, but we don't live in a dense area, so average 20 mpg here. About 24 on the highway.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Ericson38

That's pretty good electrical rate (your version of cents). Our Pacific Gas and Electric EV2A rate is 21 cents off peak and 52 cents peak for 1 kw-hour.

https://www.pge.com/pge_global/commo...icing-2020.pdf

Average Tesla uses 34KW-hours for 100 miles driving.

https://www.carshtuff.com/post/how-m...es-a-tesla-use

So maybe $16.00 on the high side (peak) to go 100 miles at our PG&E prices.

For a SUV at 20 mpg (our Porsche Cayenne), I need 5 of those to get to 100 miles, which is 5.00 for premium. So $25 to go 100 miles, which is $9.00 more than the Tesla paying the high rate electrical use factor.

Use a Toyota Rav 4 at 35 mpg, so transits 1.75x as far for same fuel consumption, and then, recharge at lower rates (off peak), being about 50% savings, so the spread between the two modes didn't change much.

Our Electrical rates are high, and fuel costs are low (in comparison) compared to other parts of the world.

On of the issues they are coming to terms with is that $16 fill on electricity doesn't include fuel tax. It also doesn't include those who do not have a garage and must use charge stations (again, you have to consider the unsubsidized price).

20mpg, it pretty horrid even for a larger SUV.. You can get full size 1/2ton pickups that get 25-30mpg.

But compared to a small efficient sedan getting 40mpg, That's 2.5gal/100miles...or about $12 or very cost competitive.

You can play with the numbers but when on a level playing field, there isn't a huge cost savings.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

This Is simply a reflection of the US generation issues rather then EVs

The part about having electricity shut off...you are correct.

The part about them not paying gas tax, is very true and if the numbers ever get up to meaningful percentages, there will be a reckoning.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Ericson38

UK Regulations proposed for charging electric private vehicles.

https://assets.publishing.service.go...t-response.pdf

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/.../contents/made

For the EV to grid energy flow periods (your car battery energy back to the public grid), doesn't that add additional charge-recharge cycles to your battery, and how to control when they want the energy back (hopefully not on demand on their side).

If on demand on the govt side (since it would be a time when grid power was short), I guess you would not want to travel anyway since you would not be able to recharge.

The idea of using EV battery banks to backfeed the grid during peak periods, does make a lot of sense...if the economics back it up.

- Solar produces no power at night, a tiny amount early and late day and lots mid day. In terms of demand based pricing, this should be cheap power.
- Consumption ramps up in the morning but peaks early evening. The grid operators must build the grid and the non-solar power production to accommodate that peak.
- Most days a commuter car won't need to charge at night as long as enough remains to get back to the work parking lot in the morning.

So if the car is connected to the grid mid day, soaking up the cheap solar power and then when you get home, it feeds a portion back into the grid feeding that peak rather than requiring the grid to feed it, it represents a potential for large savings to the grid operators.

Assuming you feed your own house first and simply use less grid power during the evening peak, you effectively get full peak retail price for your power. (works best if they use demand pricing).

But even if it feeds back into the grid and you get paid wholesale prices, the cost of not building a new power plant and upgrading the grid, should make the price received pretty substantial and likely higher than off peak pricing.

The OP is correct, that you need account for the wear and tear on the battery bank. They don't last for unlimited charge cycles, so the price would need to be high enough to compensate...but if as many proponents claim, the battery banks are good for 300-400k miles, the car will wear out before the battery bank, so it would actually be capturing lost value.

Of course, this all comes down to an economics math calculation. Either the numbers work or they don't. The biggest issue is utilities are large slow moving organizations, so it will likely to take years to sort out. Anyone who says they know the exact value is making highly speculative assumptions.

[Montanan]

A wide range of pricing formats and tariffs per kWh have been represented.

Here on the Flathead Nation, at The Last Best Place, Montana, the not-for-profit, tribal owned, public electric power utility charges a basic connection charge of $15 per month and US$0.0689 kWh for residential customers; there are no time of day, or peak usage price adjustments, just a simple flat rate tariff schedule.

The tribe also owns the hydroelectric power generation dam on the Flathead River which is operated by their private company called Energy Keepers, and its sells some of the electricity to their public utility which distributes to the local end use customers. Most of the generated power is sold to the wholesale grid in the Pacific Northwest, with a few major remote commercial power consuming customers.

There is no natural gas service on the tribal reservation, just electricity, and if one desires private propane or heating oil service vendors.

One of the companies, I have co-founded developed a very efficient, novel motor architecture under the development sponsorship of a major Chinese consortium which motors are being used in China's eBuses and heavy goods vehicles and now are being downsized for automobile sector and even to small scale for greatly enhanced efficiency of Heating, Ventilation and Air Conditioning systems. Soon we will be bringing the motor technology into the North American electric vehicle sector, awaiting our first delivery, hopefully by the end of January.

In China the electric automobile now accounts for 19% of cars sold annually. In 2020 there were 1.25 million EVs sold in China, in 2021 that rose to about 3 million.

Our joint venture partner, CATL accounted for 52+% of the lithium battery production in China last year and 35% of the world's production. That's more than the next two largest manufacturers- LG Chem's LG Energy Solution (19%) and Panasonic (15%) combined. They are a very young company, having ramped up to be revenue producing in just the last 8 years and are expanding production capacity at breakneck speed.

It is interesting to see the evolution of the battery sector, including the expansion of the nascent BaaS (Battery as a Service) battery rental / swap business, in addition to the rapid charging networks. Soon we will see the lithium battery recycling business ramp up and the materials becoming part of the circular economy. The hybridization of the chemistries of both LFP and Sodium Ion cells into one battery pack architecture is very innovative, very enabling in cold climates.

[Capt.Don]

Originally Posted by Ericson38

From True Car-
Need to recharge EV to off peak charging to get the 2x EV efficiency margin back.

Now, if you are driving across California and have to charge at least once during the day, not only will it cost about the same as refueling the RAV4, you have to wait an hour for charge (assuming you can find a supercharger). The EVs make sense for daily commute and errands, but not long-distance travel.

[AKA-None]

Originally Posted by Bill Seal

First of all, EVs don't pay road taxes, so they're freeloading off those of us who do.
We happened to be driving through NorCal when PG@E cut all the power to everything north of San Francisco for 4 or 5 days, The motels didn't have lights or hot water, but the casinos had their own generators (and were giving out portable generators as prizes).
The EVs were all turned into lawn art.
BTW, a Tesla Powerwall contains 13KWH, or two gallons worth of gasoline in a small generator.

Wrong in Wisconsin where the annual tax rate is set based on miles driven

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Ericson38

Brought in, and we pay high marginal rates to get it from Oregon and Nevada. State is shutting down all nuclear plants, there are only 2-3 left. Also shutting down El Segundo natural gas plant and one in Redondo Beach.

Calif does not export electricity.

State also imports almost half its crude oil from Middle East for its refineries.

https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-repor...nia-refineries

Presumably the nuclear plants are coming to "end of life" but it doesn't look goo for the future. The UK is just starting to build another one possibly two, all be it a bit late.

Pete

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by AKA-None

Wrong in Wisconsin where the annual tax rate is set based on miles driven

Did this get passed just recently? I looked and there is a $100 extra registration fee but I couldn't find a per mile tax.

For reference, fuel taxes on a car typically run around $250-300 per year (varies a bit by state), so $100 would still be well below comparable.

I couldn't find any states that charge per mile and most are at or below the $100 per year figure used by Wisconsin.