English Channel - A political/migration question

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

How would you stop them boarding

Don't get too close in the first place and secondly run away. Remember these are inflatable dinghies with small outboards, then loaded to the gunnels with as many migrants as the smugglers can get on board. Even a modest yacht is going to out run them. As someone has already mentioned, if they are allowed on board you risk loosing control of your yacht. Remember we don't do guns in Europe.

Thankfully the channel is only narrow at Dover before opening up much wider and beyond the scope of a small dinghy.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by muttnik

You are entirely missing the point. "Illegal migrant" would be a purely descriptive term with no apparent subtext. Use of the adjective as a noun, ie "illegals" is a very particular linguistic device used exclusively by those who embrace a certain style of politics, one aspect of which is strong views on migration.

To repeat: the OP's question about the impact of illegal migration on recreational boating (and to repeat: negligible in the UK) and procedure on encountering migrant boats is a perfectly legitimate topic for a seamanship subforum. Divisive political opinion not directly related to boating is better confined to an off-topic subforum.

Guess yours the 'Open Borders' style of politics.. Semantics...
Procedure... if you see them do a Pan Pan Relay call to the Coastguard/Guardia Civil or whoever the relevant authority is in your area reporting position, heading and number on board if possible.
If you choose to shadow them (your choice) keep reporting any new headings, positions as they change till authorities arrive on the scene.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by boatman61

No.. it implies an illegal act, morality does not come into it.

Using your definition charging a squatter with illegally entering your property while your on holiday would be an immoral judgement.. or a burglar come to that.

If I enter the USA without clearing in and am caught I face either immediate deportation or imprisonment followed by deportation.

The Law is the Law and all should be subject to it.

My Pakistani brother settled in the USA, my Pakistani sister settled in Canada legally... so go swivel on your 'morality'

Suggest you read the title of the thread..

Seeking asylum is not the same as illegal immigration

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by s/v Moondancer

Goboatingnow,

Standard naval procedure…a warning shot across the bow!

I see. What do you fire , oranges I suppose or ripe tomatoes at a push

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Seeking asylum is not the same as illegal immigration

Yeah.. I guess there are a lot of dangers and persecutions to escape from in France..

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Yeah.. I guess there are a lot of dangers and persecutions to escape from in France..

Erm making you eat L'escargot

[Montanan]

FYI, regarding the migrant issue to the UK, that subject is simply called Brentry.

If you spot someone in peril, provide prompt assistance to the best of your ability; that is the proper course of action always.

As to the Channel crossing, well that is no different than say aiding someone to cross the Rio Grande River along the US southern border. If the current is getting the best of them, toss a lifeline.

If you are gifted the privilege to have the opportunity to be of assistance to migrants, don't hesitate. A welcome hand is a welcome hand, you never know when you might also be in need of assistance, so support the culture of mutual kindness and respect.

We Montanans typically enthusiastically greet our northern brethren who enter by crossing the 49th into the 406 Country, Eh. Heck we even welcome the North Dakotans.

My indigenous Salish and Kootenai neighbors are gracious enough to kindly grant us migrant non-native Americans [I being of English, Irish, German and French ancestral lineage, i.e., yep, pure breed mutt] to live and work [read intrude] onto their Flathead Nation. Recalling that Congress, on June 2, 1924, enacted the Indian Citizenship Act, which granted citizenship to all Native Americans born in the U.S. The right to vote, however, was governed by individual state law; up until 1957, some states barred Native Americans from voting. Further proof that the USA has always been and still is less than a perfect Union. Mind you until that time, the non-natives, [non-true americans], we the immigrants, failed in granting the most basic of rights and dignity of respect to the First Peoples. I would recommend to not emulate the USA, we on many occasions are a shining example of hypocrisy and particularly in recent years are often of the poorest moral character in this regard.

Best wishes to all, from The Last Best Place.

[Montanan]

Statistics regarding the migration across the Channel from Wiki.

The number has been quite small with a small uptick of this Brentry in 2020.

Certainly vastly smaller than say the Mariel Boatlift. IMO, it would seem to be a simple matter to just process them like other refugees and thus mitigate hazardous crossing attempts.

Snipet from:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Englis...2%80%93present)

Refugees and migrants
Numbers

2018
539 refugees and migrants are documented to have "tried to reach Britain on small boats" in 2018; many, however, were intercepted and returned to France. 434 migrants are known to have made the crossing in small boats in October, November and December 2018, 100 in November 2018, 230 in December.

Following the surge in migrant crossing incidents in November and December, on 28 December 2018 the UK Home secretary declared a major incident regarding refugees attempting to cross the channel.

227 refugees and migrants were intercepted and returned to the continent by French authorities in 2018, "at least" 95 refugees and migrants in December alone.

By way of comparison, 26,547 asylum claims were filed by would be refugees in the UK in 2017.

2019
During the course of 2019, almost 1,900 had made the crossing by the end of the year. From July to December 2019, an average of approximately 200 'migrants' made the crossing per month.

2020
In April 2020, boat arrivals for that month was over 400 - the highest monthly total ever recorded.

In July, the number of people crossing almost matched the combined total of May and June, with more migrants encouraged by good weather and calm seas.

In August, it was reported that in 2020 so far almost 4,000 people had crossed the Channel illegally, using at least 300 small boats. On 6 August a record number of migrants arrived, at least 235. It has also been observed that while it was originally mostly men that were arriving, young children and pregnant women and babies are now often among those arriving.

The total number of migrants recorded to have crossed into the UK so far in 2020 was 3,948 as of 7 August.

According to analysis by PA Media, the number of migrants reaching the UK shore has gone beyond 4,100 people in 2020. The Home Office confirmed that 151 migrants came ashore on 8 August. French authorities claimed that in the first six months of 2020, the number of migrants crossing the English Channel increased by five times, as compared to the last year.

On 19 August a Sudanese boy, Abdulfatah Hamdallah, drowned in the Channel making the journey from France. He died after his and his friend's inflatable dinghy, which they were powering using shovels as oars, capsized. While his companion and British news media claimed he was 16 years old, Boulogne-Sur-Mer's deputy public prosecutor Philippe Sabatier said a travel document provided by Mr Hamdallah gave his age as 28. The pair had previously been living in the Calais Jungle for at least two months prior.

By 20 October, the total number of crossings in 2020 reached 7,294.

On October 27, a Kurdish-Iranian family of five from Sardasht died after a boat capsized outside France on way to reach the UK. Artin Irannezhad, a 15 month old toddler from the shipwreck, washed up on Karmøy island on January 1, 2021.

By the end of the year 2020, about 635 boats had crossed the Channel, carrying 8,438 people.

2021
Illegal crossings continued in 2021, including 103 people on 10 January and 77 people on 24 February.

Countries of origin

The refugees making the small boat crossings are coming disproportionately from Iran.

[Montanan]

Illegal migrants crossing the English Channel should be returned to France, UK MPs say
Published 11 June, 2021

Snipet: https://unitynewsnetwork.co.uk/illeg...rance-mps-say/

Conservative MPs have called on France to accept back migrants who have come across the English Channel in small boats illegal, once they have been intercepted by British officials. The number of migrants crossing the Channel has more than doubled year on year – despite Home Secretary Priti Patel’s vow to make the route “unviable”.

Well over 4,000 people have crossed the Channel so far this year [2021] – more than double the total at the same point last year of around 1,700 people.

IMO, so yeah, basically a tiny quantity of migrants, other than it being sometimes a hazardous journey this is almost a non-issue. Geez, Ellis Island in New York harbor would routinely and efficiently process that many migrants arriving from Europe by ship pretty much each and every day for decades. Just let them enter by ferry boats.

Tory MP Damian Collins, who represents Folkestone and Hythe, has previously shared his own frustration with the “shamefully high” number of crossings. He has called for an agreement with the French government so that UK officials “either intercept vessels making illegal crossings earlier in their journeys and take them back to France, or we return them to that country once they have been detained in England”. A Home Office spokesman said: “More than 3,500 people have been prevented from making the dangerous crossing so far this year and we are cracking down on the despicable criminal gangs behind people smuggling. Inaction is not an option whilst people are dying.” The spokesman added: “The government is bringing legislation forward through our new plan for immigration which will break the business model of these heinous people smuggling networks and save lives.”

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Illegal migrants crossing the English Channel should be returned to France, UK MPs say
Published 11 June, 2021

Snipet: https://unitynewsnetwork.co.uk/illeg...rance-mps-say/

Conservative MPs have called on France to accept back migrants who have come across the English Channel in small boats illegal, once they have been intercepted by British officials. The number of migrants crossing the Channel has more than doubled year on year – despite Home Secretary Priti Patel’s vow to make the route “unviable”.

Well over 4,000 people have crossed the Channel so far this year [2021] – more than double the total at the same point last year of around 1,700 people.

IMO, so yeah, basically a tiny quantity of migrants, other than it being sometimes a hazardous journey this is almost a non-issue. Geez, Ellis Island in New York harbor would routinely and efficiently process that many migrants arriving from Europe by ship pretty much each and every day for decades. Just let them enter by ferry boats.

Tory MP Damian Collins, who represents Folkestone and Hythe, has previously shared his own frustration with the “shamefully high” number of crossings. He has called for an agreement with the French government so that UK officials “either intercept vessels making illegal crossings earlier in their journeys and take them back to France, or we return them to that country once they have been detained in England”. A Home Office spokesman said: “More than 3,500 people have been prevented from making the dangerous crossing so far this year and we are cracking down on the despicable criminal gangs behind people smuggling. Inaction is not an option whilst people are dying.” The spokesman added: “The government is bringing legislation forward through our new plan for immigration which will break the business model of these heinous people smuggling networks and save lives.”

Considering there's around 70million people living on an island roughly the size of Oregon methinks your comparing Grapes to Watermelons when it comes to the UK vs USA.
Oregon's population is less than 4,500,000..

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Montanan

If you spot someone in peril, provide prompt assistance to the best of your ability; that is the proper course of action always.

If you are gifted the privilege to have the opportunity to be of assistance to migrants, don't hesitate. A welcome hand is a welcome hand, you never know when you might also be in need of assistance, so support the culture of mutual kindness and respect.

So you are advising stopping alongside a group of strangers in an overloaded dinghy? You have thought this through or have some experience. You feel these people are nice home town boys who respect.

So how exactly will you protect your wife, family and property from these strangers? Notice how the majority are young men who claim they have nothing, apart from now your boat.

Note, these are the same people who have just burnt down a barracks in the UK after being rescued, offered food, accommodation and safety.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...cks-for-months

With a small crew on board an average sized yacht, you will stay well away and just call it in.

Pete

[CatNewBee]

Report sight to coastguard with position and stay clear is all you can do without getting in trouble.

US, Canada have a pretty sane and rigid push back on illegal entry. Europe should do the same to save lives and stop encourage this human trafficking.

You can apply for asylum, but not break the law by illegally entering.

We have encountered migrant activities in the Med when we crossed south coast of Sardinia, they use flimpsy wooden fisherman boats loaded with about 10..12 people with insane powerfull outboards, speeding well over 20kn. Coadguard tried to chase them, it took a while until they got them to stop and follow, they first tried to outrun the coastguard vessel.

Usually it is a business for the fishermen, they rarely come in rubber dinghies - except they know they will be picked up by resque ferries of the NGOs off the coast.

I am pretty sure, a big part of the illegal migration into the UK is not done by rubber dinghies, but by smuggling on rigid fishing vessels.

Migrants with nothing to loose do not buy new dinghies and outboards anyway, so no market impact.

In Greece were reports last year of a stolen Yacht used by smugglers to ferry migrants and then abandoned at sea near shore ending up on the rocks. There is a lot of criminal energy and money at stake.

A crew of a commercial ship was taken hostage by a group of resqued migrants too - as reported.

[boatman61]

Maybe Morocco to Spain or Portugal but not in the Channel..
Count how many are in a dinghy.. at €4/5000 per passenger the first one covers the cost of the dinghy and outboard.. the rest is pure profit.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Considering there's around 70million people living on an island roughly the size of Oregon methinks your comparing Grapes to Watermelons when it comes to the UK vs USA.
Oregon's population is less than 4,500,000..

A lot of people migrated from the UK to come to the USA, i.e., they Brexited.

As to the UK:

“The population grew at the slowest rate for 15 years between mid-2018 and mid-2019. This is due to the lowest number of births for 14 years alongside an increase in emigration and a fall in international immigration.

There being a large variation in the population across the UK. For example, the population density in London is 24 times higher than that for the South West of England.

The UK population was estimated to be 66,796,807 in mid-2019.

The growth in the year to mid-2019 was the slowest since mid-2004, at 0.5% (a mere 361,000).

Net international migration of 231,000 people was 44,000 fewer than in the year to mid-2018.

The year to mid-2019 saw the fewest births since mid-2005, at 722,000.

Unauthorized immigrants in the UK include those who have:

entered the UK without authority
entered with false documents
overstayed their visas
worked or studied on a tourist visa/ non-immigrant visa waiver
entered into forced or fraudulent marriage
had their marriages terminated or annulled.

A London School of Economic study estimates the unauthorized immigrants in the UK oscillate between only 417,000 and 863,000, including a population of UK-born children to non-authorized immigrants ranging between 44,000 and 144,000.

The estimates for unauthorized immigrants in the USA generally are around 14.5 million of which about two thirds are persons who have simply overstayed their visas having arrived properly but just have not left when their permitted visitation time expired. Apparently they like the place. Of course the press and the politicians just play up those that just walk across the north and south borders at other than the entry points.
The USA has about 800,000 DREAMers that continue to reside in the USA under DACA [Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals] that is equivalent to the upper range of estimates of all unauthorized immigrants in the UK.

As to the State of Oregon, wow, comparing one of the youngest of the United States [the 9th largest state and the 39th least populous state] to the isles nation is an peculiar choice. Perhaps comparing the Old UK to one of the older "New" states, such as New York, New Jersey or say all of New England would be a fairer comparison to the UK.

Maybe a comparison to Montaña an even younger but larger state would be a more extreme choice. Our "406 Country" is about 1.6 times larger than the UK and has a population of 1,030,000 [getting crowded]. There are more than twice as many cattle. We are worried that Covid, might mutate to become reverse zoonotic and we end up having a pandemic of COWvid. It might be a greater challenge to obtain herd immunity to COWvid.

Or hey, how about comparing the UK to Australia; is a criminal conviction from the UK still a requirement to be granted a visa or permanent residency permit for entry to Downunder?

DACA Explained
The recipients of DACA are young people who have grown up as Americans, identify themselves as Americans, and many speak only English and have no memory of or connection with the country where they were born. Under current immigration law, most of these young people had no way to gain legal residency even though they have lived in the U.S. most of their lives.

Many DREAMers say they didn’t know they were unauthorized immigrants until they were teenagers—often when they discovered they couldn’t join their peers in getting a driver’s license or filling out financial aid forms for college because they didn’t have Social Security numbers. The Development, Relief and Education for Alien Minors (DREAM) Act failed to pass Congress several times. The DREAM Act would have provided a pathway to U.S. citizenship to certain undocumented youth who go to college and/or serve in the military while maintaining a good record.

DACA enables certain people who came to the U.S. as children and meet several key guidelines to request consideration for deferred action. It allows non-U.S. citizens who qualify to remain in the country for two years, subject to renewal. Recipients are eligible for work authorization and other benefits, and are shielded from deportation. The fee to request DACA is $495 every two years.

DACA Recipients
Since DACA began, 787,580 people have been approved for the program. To be eligible, applicants had to have arrived in the U.S. before age 16 and lived here since June 15, 2007. They could not have been older than 30 when the Department of Homeland Security enacted the policy in 2012. DACA applicants have to provide evidence they were living in the U.S. at the prescribed times, proof of education and confirmation of their identities. They also had to pass background, fingerprint and other biometric checks that record identifying biological features.

Of course there are likely far more children that arrived here AFTER June 15, 2007 that also have grown up as U.S. Americans, identify themselves as U.S. Americans, and many speak only English and have no memory of or connection with the country where they were born; and they also have DREAMs but are not "DREAMers". Most of those youngsters are our fellow Americans being just as much, or even more american compared to most of the people of the United States. Mind you that there are about 1.3 billion Americans, the U.S. Americans being about one quarter of all of the Americans.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Montanan

A lot of people migrated from the UK to come to the USA, i.e., they Brexited.

As to the UK:

“The population grew at the slowest rate for 15 years between mid-2018 and mid-2019. This is due to the lowest number of births for 14 years alongside an increase in emigration and a fall in international immigration.

There being a large variation in the population across the UK. For example, the population density in London is 24 times higher than that for the South West of England.

The UK population was estimated to be 66,796,807 in mid-2019.

The growth in the year to mid-2019 was the slowest since mid-2004, at 0.5% (a mere 361,000).

Net international migration of 231,000 people was 44,000 fewer than in the year to mid-2018.

The year to mid-2019 saw the fewest births since mid-2005, at 722,000.

Unauthorized immigrants in the UK include those who have:

entered the UK without authority
entered with false documents
overstayed their visas
worked or studied on a tourist visa/ non-immigrant visa waiver
entered into forced or fraudulent marriage
had their marriages terminated or annulled.

A London School of Economic study estimates the unauthorized immigrants in the UK oscillate between only 417,000 and 863,000, including a population of UK-born children to non-authorized immigrants ranging between 44,000 and 144,000.

The estimates for unauthorized immigrants in the USA generally are around 14.5 million of which about two thirds are persons who have simply overstayed their visas having arrived properly but just have not left when their permitted visitation time expired. Apparently they like the place. Of course the press and the politicians just play up those that just walk across the north and south borders at other than the entry points.
The USA has about 800,000 DREAMers that continue to reside in the USA under DACA [Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals] that is equivalent to the upper range of estimates of all unauthorized immigrants in the UK.

As to the State of Oregon, wow, comparing one of the youngest of the United States [the 9th largest state and the 39th least populous state] to the isles nation is an peculiar choice. Perhaps comparing the Old UK to one of the older "New" states, such as New York, New Jersey or say all of New England would be a fairer comparison to the UK.

Maybe a comparison to Montaña an even younger but larger state would be a more extreme choice. Our "406 Country" is about 1.6 times larger than the UK and has a population of 1,030,000 [getting crowded]. There are more than twice as many cattle. We are worried that Covid, might mutate to become reverse zoonotic and we end up having a pandemic of COWvid. It might be a greater challenge to obtain herd immunity to COWvid.

Or hey, how about comparing the UK to Australia; is a criminal conviction from the UK still a requirement to be granted a visa or permanent residency permit for entry to Downunder?

DACA Explained
The recipients of DACA are young people who have grown up as Americans, identify themselves as Americans, and many speak only English and have no memory of or connection with the country where they were born. Under current immigration law, most of these young people had no way to gain legal residency even though they have lived in the U.S. most of their lives.

Many DREAMers say they didn’t know they were unauthorized immigrants until they were teenagers—often when they discovered they couldn’t join their peers in getting a driver’s license or filling out financial aid forms for college because they didn’t have Social Security numbers. The Development, Relief and Education for Alien Minors (DREAM) Act failed to pass Congress several times. The DREAM Act would have provided a pathway to U.S. citizenship to certain undocumented youth who go to college and/or serve in the military while maintaining a good record.

DACA enables certain people who came to the U.S. as children and meet several key guidelines to request consideration for deferred action. It allows non-U.S. citizens who qualify to remain in the country for two years, subject to renewal. Recipients are eligible for work authorization and other benefits, and are shielded from deportation. The fee to request DACA is $495 every two years.

DACA Recipients
Since DACA began, 787,580 people have been approved for the program. To be eligible, applicants had to have arrived in the U.S. before age 16 and lived here since June 15, 2007. They could not have been older than 30 when the Department of Homeland Security enacted the policy in 2012. DACA applicants have to provide evidence they were living in the U.S. at the prescribed times, proof of education and confirmation of their identities. They also had to pass background, fingerprint and other biometric checks that record identifying biological features.

Of course there are likely far more children that arrived here AFTER June 15, 2007 that also have grown up as U.S. Americans, identify themselves as U.S. Americans, and many speak only English and have no memory of or connection with the country where they were born; and they also have DREAMs but are not "DREAMers". Most of those youngsters are our fellow Americans being just as much, or even more american compared to most of the people of the United States. Mind you that there are about 1.3 billion Americans, the U.S. Americans being about one quarter of all of the Americans.

Son of Gord..