English Channel - A political/migration question

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by muttnik

When France opens up post covid, not being able to sail directly to St. Vaast because it's not a port of entry and having to hike to the PAF in cherbourg on arrival and departure will have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with migrants and everything to do with Brexit.

Not very tall are you.. everything seems to go right over your head..

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by muttnik

Fair enough and apologies to the denizens of Dover. My last experience 2 years ago en route to dunkerque was coloured by some stress with an engine leaking diesel, trying to find somewhere to dispose of diesel and an impression that the town was a bit down at heal. I'm not a member of a yacht club so don't tend to visit them but as an international staging post I'm sure you do cross paths with interesting folk if you are the yacht club type. Happy to accept there's a better side to the town.

I'm actually a sucker for challenging port regulations so regarded that part as a positive for the interest value.

The point I was trying to make was that migrants might impact UK sailing more if they were aiming for Lee-on-Solent. You might enjoy Dover as a twice-a-year passage stop but would you base your boat there? DO many non-locals berth there? It didn't look to be crammed with yachts but I could have been mistaken.

What impact would *you* say migrants have had on your experience of sailing?

I've never had any issue with migrants, or measures taken against migrants. Never noticed anything.


As to where to keep a yacht on the English side of the Channel -- I prefer the Solent. I love the Solent in winter, and it's reasonably reachable from London. Cowes is 2 hours door to door from London when the fast trains are running. There are many charming ports West of there -- I love especially Weymouth, Dartmouth, Plymouth, Salcombe, Falmouth. But they are all too far away from London to suit me. East of the Solent I really only like Dover, and yes, I would base a yacht there. It's a bit further from London than Brighton, but I really don't like Brighton.



But anyway it's not a question for me. I really love Cowes and have friends there. I will go back there end of September provided the borders are open. I also love the Hamble, and I love Lymington -- the Solent is full of lovely places. Even Southampton is pretty decent. The Solent is crowded and expensive in the summer, but I'm somewhere North during summers.


As to the yacht club in Dover -- it is a really really modest, casual place, nothing posh or snobby about it, which welcomes all sailors. I really recommend it.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Considering over 7,000 illegals have crossed by dinghy so far this year I beg to differ..
If you calculate say 10/dinghy that's an average of 38 dinghies a day.. seems a pretty big feature to me...

7000/yr / 365d/y = 19.17 refugee's/d.

19.5 refugee's/d / 3 refugees/dinghy = 6.4 dinghies/day

[muttnik]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Not very tall are you.. everything seems to go right over your head..

I see this thread has now moved to the off-topic forum where it probably belongs given the direction. Apologies but yes, your meaning is still eluding me. To recap, and please point out where I've gone wrong:
- I and others have suggested that migrant activity in the channel has no noticeable effect on recreational boating in the UK.
- You disagree, think it's "a lot to do with sailing" and cite, apparently in support of that contention, formalities required for entry into the EU by non-EU citizens
- I suggest that UK citizens now having to cope with entry formalities for non-EU citizens is a consequence of Brexit, not migrants.
- You respond with the above

Can you clarify why onerous entry requirements to france for UK sailors are a consequence of migrant activity rather than the more obvious fact that Britain is no longer part of the EU? I'm aware that British nationalist/popularist activist Nigel Farage has now taken to demonising migrants rather than the EU but I can see no other connection.

[cuthbert]

When I started the thread it was an idle cuiousity if people saw dinghys in the channel like they would car ferries and if the market for inflatables reflected the one way traffic.

However in the USA a week or so ago the "nightly news" on NBC had an article on San Diego policing actions/boat boardings as travelling by sea to enter the country was becoming a thing of note.

Interesting to see the political comments - my two pennies in this area is literally that as I never want to find myself "raising awareness" on an issue, its do something or not. To that end the last time I made an unplanned, one off donation to a charity was the American Red Cross when the rohingya muslims were flooding into Bangladesh. I thought to myself if someone goes to the adjacent country - Bangladesh, drops to their knees and kisses the ground as they now feel safe then THAT is a refugee and its a worthy cause needing support. Everything else is somewhat less black and white.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I guess that would depend on your sources.. the Guardian is famously biased in its interpretations to suit its readers and their politics..

I would also be obliged if you would not try to label me anti-immigrant, I am not, I am however against people who do not follow official procedures for entering a country as I willingly have to do... they have passed through safe countries to reach the French coast so they have lost 'refugee status'.
It does affect sailing in the Med and I have been challenged a few times at night along the Italian coast, Greek islands and along the coast of E Spain and the Strait of Gibraltar.. but the last is also a big drug smuggling area.
Last time I was in the Channel was pre Pandemic so cannot comment on this or the last year.

Re the 7000, seems I got the wrong year in my search and that was the total for the period till Sept 2020... this is the latest I found.

https://www.infomigrants.net/en/post...rs-of-migrants...
02/06/2021 · 3,500 crossed the Channel to UK this year. The UK government has said that this year to date, 3,500 people have successfully crossed the Channel. The UK government has vowed to crack down hard on the people smugglers who are bringing people across the Channel, after more than 8,000 arrived by that route in 2020

This still represents well over 20/day, much more if you take into consideration bad weather stopping trips.
PS: The numbers above relate only to those boats intercepted by the Coastguard, empty dinghies are often found along the coast and their occupants long gone.

I know you've done a fair bit of paid delivery work. Have you had a work or crew visa for every country you've picked up or delivered a boat to, or do you stop at the 12 miles limit and pass off the responsibilities to someone legally entitled to work in that country? If not, then guess what, you too are an "illegal" and if not you then almost every other delivery captain is. Wonder why we aren't running around labeling them "illegals"

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

I know you've done a fair bit of paid delivery work. Have you had a work or crew visa for every country you've picked up or delivered a boat to, or do you stop at the 12 miles limit and pass off the responsibilities to someone legally entitled to work in that country? If not, then guess what, you too are an "illegal" and if not you then almost every other delivery captain is. Wonder why we aren't running around labeling them "illegals"

Entry to a country does not make one illegal, one needs authorization. Authorization can be granted by visa before entry, or authorization can be granted by visa at point of entry. Each country is unique.

Vessels often are required to enter as specific points of entry to be processed by border / immigration agencies, by health inspectors, by customs agencies, etc.

Any experienced delivery captain will have crossed borders numerous times and will know the specific procedures and places for the country they are entering.

Even native nationals or residents of a country are required to clear immigration controls upon entry to a country, if they don't follow the proper entry procedures their repatriation to the country they are a citizen of would be an illegal action.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Entry to a country does not make one illegal, one needs authorization. Authorization can be granted by visa before entry, or authorization can be granted by visa at point of entry. Each country is unique.

Vessels often are required to enter as specific points of entry to be processed by border / immigration agencies, by health inspectors, by customs agencies, etc.

Any experienced delivery captain will have crossed borders numerous times and will know the specific procedures and places for the country they are entering.

Even native nationals or residents of a country are required to clear immigration controls upon entry to a country, if they don't follow the proper entry procedures their repatriation to the country they are a citizen of would be an illegal action.

Maybe I need to be more blunt. A paid delivery captain is providing a service for compensation any time they're delivering a boat. If you're getting paid to deliver a boat to or from a country where you don't have residency or a work visa, you're, by the @boatman61 definition, an "illegal" once you enter their territorial waters because it's illegal for you to be compensated to provide a service in that country without a work visa or a crew transit visa. I am going to venture a guess that neither @boatman61 or the vast majority of other delivery skippers have such a visa, instead they enter on a normal tourist visa since getting a work visa for every country you visit isn't really practical from a time/cost perspective for such a job. Therefore they are breaking the immigration laws of the countries they enter without a work visa.

Yet for some reason we don't feel compelled to call delivery captains that break immigration laws in such a fashion "illegals", despite the fact that it's supposedly just a factual and not a pejorative term. I find that puzzling, don't you?

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

Maybe I need to be more blunt. A paid delivery captain is providing a service for compensation any time they're delivering a boat. If you're getting paid to deliver a boat to or from a country where you don't have residency or a work visa, you're, by the @boatman61 definition, an "illegal" once you enter their territorial waters because it's illegal for you to be compensated to provide a service in that country without a work visa or a crew transit visa. I am going to venture a guess that neither @boatman61 or the vast majority of other delivery skippers have such a visa, instead they enter on a normal tourist visa since getting a work visa for every country you visit isn't really practical from a time/cost perspective for such a job. Therefore they are breaking the immigration laws of the countries they enter without a work visa.

Yet for some reason we don't feel compelled to call delivery captains that break immigration laws in such a fashion "illegals", despite the fact that it's supposedly just a factual and not a pejorative term. I find that puzzling, don't you?

That's a nonsensical example. If that was the case thousands of professional seamen on commercial vessels would be considered law breakers. The vessels are not considered to be national territory by the receiving country until importation processes have been completed.

States have numerous other reasons for border control than just immigration control and people attempting to bypass the normal "gateways" for entry put all their precautions at risk.

[Quebramar]

To the OP’s original question, I could add the following anecdotes.

Based in Nieuwpoort, Belgium I cross the Channel many times a year (that is, excl Covid). Dover and Ramsgate are the first ports when entering the Channel from the North/East (50-55NM from Nieuwpoort).

Ramsgate has a large navy ship for Border Force regularly berthed there. I personally came across one control from them at sea, I think it was 2018, with regular info radio check on origin and destination, crew and purpose. This is regular practice and I know of several marina colleagues/friends who got the same.

The same year2018, the BE police dismantled a gang of smugglers who were renting sailboats in Nieuwpoort to bring migrants tôt he UK for a sizeable amount of money (heard 5k and 10k€, both are rumours).

Since then, not heard much and esp. since Covid.

[Montanan]

I perceive there is confusion between entry by a vessel under charter which requires a visa work permit and usually a business permit and the delivery of a vessel which is a transport activity and an import activity, very much similar to whence a truck or a car are delivered by a transport driver. They are not illegal if they are authorized for entry by grant of a visa. Just as it not illegal for a recreational boat owner to enter with a visa.

Entry with out being granted permission is when one becomes illegal, entry can be denied and one must deport / leave, denial of entry is not itself an illegal status it is a non-permitted status.

One just needs to assess the rules of immigration for the specific country.

By way of example for the USA.

"If your boat has anchored or tied up, you are considered to have entered the United States. No one shall board or leave the boat without first completing customs processing, unless permission to do so is granted by the CBP Officer in charge. The only exception to this requirement is to report arrival. If it is necessary for someone to leave the boat to report arrival to CBP, he or she must return to the boat after reporting and remain on board unless instructed otherwise. No one who arrived on that boat may leave until the CBP Officer grants permission to go ashore. A report of arrival into the United States should be made to the CBP office nearest to your point of entry."

All operators of a non-commercial small vessel/pleasure boat must report immediately to the nearest U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) Port of Entry upon arriving into the United States (U.S) from a foreign port or place.

You may report by:

Telephone
CBP ROAM app, or
In person (at the nearest Port of Entry when you return to the U.S.)

If referred for a formal entry, the operator of the pleasure boat/small vessel must provide a formal vessel entry on CBP Form 1300 within 48 hours. The operator will also need to report any foreign merchandise on the boat that is subject to duty.

Upon arrival in any port or place within the U.S., including, the U.S. Virgin Islands, any vessel from a foreign port or place, any foreign vessel from a port or place within the U.S., or any vessel of the U.S. carrying foreign merchandise for which entry has not been made, the master of the vessel must immediately report that arrival to the nearest CBP facility. The CBP officer may require the production of any documents or papers deemed necessary for the proper inspection/examination of the vessel, cargo, passenger, or crew.

CBP has designated specific reporting locations that are staffed during boating season for pleasure boats to report their arrival and be inspected by CBP. The master of the boat must report to CBP telephonically and be directed to the nearest Port of Entry to satisfy the face-to-face requirement, or report to the nearest designated reporting location along with the boat's passengers for inspection.

A cruising license exempt pleasure boats of certain countries from having to undergo formal entry and clearance procedures and can be obtained from the CBP Port Director at the first port of arrival in the United States. U.S. pleasure craft and foreign-flag vessels without a cruising license, which are 30 feet or longer in length, must pay an annual fee of $27.50 for the user fee decal. User Fee Decals may be purchased online through the CBP website.

While vessels that receive the CBP Cruising License may have some CBP reporting requirements reduced, the license does not exempt these vessels from the requirements for filing the Notice of Arrival (NOA) with the National Vessel Movement Center (NVMC) with the U.S. Coast Guard.

Under 33 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) § 160.205 required to file a NOA with NVMC prior to arrival into the US. For more information on the reporting requirements, please visit the National Vessel Movement Center (NVMC).

U.S. citizens should carry proof of citizenship such as a passport or birth certificate. Canadian citizens should present proof of Canadian citizenship; Mexican citizens may present a border-crossing card. Canadian, Mexican, and U.S. citizens must carry a passport if they are arriving in the U.S. from outside the Western Hemisphere.

Permanent residents of Canada who are nationals of a designated Visa Waiver Program (VWP) country, may enter the United States by means of a pleasure boat along the northern border of the United States, if in possession of a valid, unexpired, passport issued by his or her country of nationality, and an unexpired multiple entry Form I-94W, Nonimmigrant Visa Waiver Arrival/Departure Form, or an unexpired passport, valid unexpired United States nonimmigrant visa and I-94 Arrival/Departure Form. Entry may be made only as a visitor for pleasure.


Crewmember Visa

Generally, a citizen of a foreign country who wishes to enter the United States must first obtain a visa, either a nonimmigrant visa for temporary stay, or an immigrant visa for permanent residence. Crewmember (D) visas are nonimmigrant visas for persons working on board commercial sea vessels or international airlines in the United States, providing services required for normal operation and intending to depart the United States on the same vessel or any other vessel within 29 days. If you travel to the United States to join the vessel you will work on, in addition to a crewmember (D) visa, you also need a transit (C-1) visa or a combination C-1/D visa.

A delivery crew could request a transit visa as discussed abov because they will not be departing on the same vessel.

Transit Visa

Generally, a citizen of a foreign country who wishes to enter the United States must first obtain a visa, either a nonimmigrant visa for temporary stay, or an immigrant visa for permanent residence. Transit (C) visas are nonimmigrant visas for persons traveling in immediate and continuous transit through the United States en route to another country, with few exceptions. Immediate and continuous transit is defined as a reasonably expeditious departure of the traveler in the normal course of travel as the elements permit and assumes a prearranged itinerary without any unreasonable layover privileges. If the traveler seeks layover privileges for purposes other than for transit through the United States, such as to visit friends or engage in sightseeing, the traveler will have to qualify for the type of visa required for that purpose.

If you already have a valid visitor (B) visa, you may be able to use it to transit the United States. If you are a citizen of a participating country, you may be able to transit the United States on the Visa Waiver Program.

[muttnik]

Info 10 years out of date so check the us govt. website if you care, but a combined B1/B2 visitor visa was standard for delivery crew entering the US when I did it. The B1 part allows visits for commercial purposes. This is different from "working" as you're not being paid in the US. "Crew" visas aren't appropriate as you're not getting back on your cruise liner. Also if arriving by private yacht you don't qualify for the visa waiver program. As a UK citizen I qualified for a waiver if flying to the US for a business visit, but for yacht delivery needed to get a visa from the US embassy beforehand.

The embassy confirmed the B1/B2 was the correct visa for my travel purpose.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

I know you've done a fair bit of paid delivery work. Have you had a work or crew visa for every country you've picked up or delivered a boat to, or do you stop at the 12 miles limit and pass off the responsibilities to someone legally entitled to work in that country? If not, then guess what, you too are an "illegal" and if not you then almost every other delivery captain is. Wonder why we aren't running around labeling them "illegals"

Okay... lets take the States for example, to enter by air I need an ESTA, a return ticket and a letter from the owner stating I am crew on a boat leaving the country.
Once the owners insisted on buying the ticket (one way) and I and my crew were held up by Homeland Security at the airport in London for two days till the owner in Miami could arrange for the local Law to verify that we were flying in to collect a sailboat.. it is not considered working in the country if departing/arriving in US waters. One reason I do not accept jobs that are say New York to Miami or Hawaii to California.. that's working in country.
For a boat entering the USA I need to carry a B1/B2 visa which is valid for 10yrs and business or pleasure.
Where one needs visa's one arranges them legally..
But.. if one gets in a dinghy and destroys all their documents while crossing the Channel so there's no proof of age or nationality making it very difficult to deport one, that's what illegals do.
Still confused.???

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Okay... lets take the States for example, to enter by air I need an ESTA, a return ticket and a letter from the owner stating I am crew on a boat leaving the country.
Once the owners insisted on buying the ticket (one way) and I and my crew were held up by Homeland Security at the airport in London for two days till the owner in Miami could arrange for the local Law to verify that we were flying in to collect a sailboat.. it is not considered working in the country if departing/arriving in US waters. One reason I do not accept jobs that are say New York to Miami or Hawaii to California.. that's working in country.
For a boat entering the USA I need to carry a B1/B2 visa which is valid for 10yrs and business or pleasure.
Where one needs visa's one arranges them legally..
But.. if one gets in a dinghy and destroys all their documents while crossing the Channel so there's no proof of age or nationality making it very difficult to deport one, that's what illegals do.
Still confused.???

Why is it not considered working in the country if you are in the country doing a job for which you're being paid? And do you honestly obtain a business visa for every country you deliver to, or stop at on your delivery? If so, you're an exception in the delivery industry.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

Maybe I need to be more blunt. A paid delivery captain is providing a service for compensation any time they're delivering a boat. If you're getting paid to deliver a boat to or from a country where you don't have residency or a work visa, you're, by the @boatman61 definition, an "illegal" once you enter their territorial waters because it's illegal for you to be compensated to provide a service in that country without a work visa or a crew transit visa. I am going to venture a guess that neither @boatman61 or the vast majority of other delivery skippers have such a visa, instead they enter on a normal tourist visa since getting a work visa for every country you visit isn't really practical from a time/cost perspective for such a job. Therefore they are breaking the immigration laws of the countries they enter without a work visa.

Yet for some reason we don't feel compelled to call delivery captains that break immigration laws in such a fashion "illegals", despite the fact that it's supposedly just a factual and not a pejorative term. I find that puzzling, don't you?

So.. are you saying these guys in the dinghies are under contract to the people smugglers as skipper and crew to deliver dinghies to Dover from Calais.???
That puts a whole different light on things..

If what we (Delivery Skippers) are doing is illegal, seeing as we are required to only clear in at named ports and follow all the C & I proceedures, produce all the ships papers etc.. and are permitted to return to said countries time and again without being arrested/deported shows we are following the correct proceedure.. furthermore we are transients and not looking to settle, makes a big difference.