Kayaks and Death Wish

[sailorboy1]

I never woud have thought this thread would make it this long. Maybe it's because the word "death" is in the title.

Going back to the start and since there appears to be some kayakers following the thread......... why cann't they wear something brighter colored so they can be seem etc. Do they have a death wish or is it they just can not think it though as to what they are doing?

[smurphny]

Originally Posted by psneeld

After 50+ years of boating, 23 as a senior officer in the USCG and over 10 years as a pro mariner...I know the chances that actually following what the navrules really say doesn't matter in the realm of small vessels (pleasure under 65 feet(20M).

And there you have it. As most of us who bother to learn the rules have always known from direct experience. But my point way back in this thread was about the legal interpretation of the status of kayaks by the courts after one has been hit by a recognized "vessel," which, it appears, a kayak is NOT. In the case of the overriding principle that BOTH vessels take action to avoid a collision; if a kayak is not considered a "vessel" then the powerboat need not take action to avoid a collision. It is "driftwood."

I do like the ideas about some sort of radar reflecting material built into a hat and wearing some visible color.

[David_Old_Jersey]

No "Problems" with Kayaks around these parts, I guess it is a numbers thing - and that no doubt applies both ways

A cheery wave (to acknowledge that I have seen them) and a quick toot if they appear unaware - seems to cover things, most probably more interested in enjoying themselves and are happy to share (as am I).........but if anyone wants to play silly beggers by turning accross my bow (whether in the rules or not) then they can do so - it ain't gonna hurt me

[canuck1955]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

No "Problems" with Kayaks around these parts, I guess it is a numbers thing - and that no doubt applies both ways

A cheery wave (to acknowledge that I have seen them) and a quick toot if they appear unaware - seems to cover things, most probably more interested in enjoying themselves and are happy to share (as am I).........

Its only a problem if you want to make it one. Yes they are hard to see, but so is a watersoaked deadhead. Personally I wouldn't want to run over a huge tree in the water and hole my boat. Sharing the water...what a concept.

In addition to sailing, I Kayak. I DO have a flashing light clipped on my paddle, looks ridiculously small but guess what, it is very visible, especially in low light.


BTW sometimes the courts are very foolish.

[smurphny]

Dickens had a famous quote about the law.

[David M]

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

I never woud have thought this thread would make it this long. Maybe it's because the word "death" is in the title.

Going back to the start and since there appears to be some kayakers following the thread......... why cann't they wear something brighter colored so they can be seem etc. Do they have a death wish or is it they just can not think it though as to what they are doing?

Agreed, just stop wearing the green, blue, black or brown clothes and wear bright yellow. It really does make a tremendous difference.

[AK_sailor]

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

I never woud have thought this thread would make it this long. Maybe it's because the word "death" is in the title.

Going back to the start and since there appears to be some kayakers following the thread......... why cann't they wear something brighter colored so they can be seem etc. Do they have a death wish or is it they just can not think it though as to what they are doing?

It appears to me that most of the kayakers who have posted on this thread (who if they are one this thread at all are probably also sailors) are aware of the problem. We try to make ourselves visible, follow the rules of the road, and maintain some common courtesy to other boaters.

The other "they" you refer to are clueless about how difficult they are to see, and are ignorant of COLREGS. A smaller percentage of "they" are also rude and obnoxious. Unfortunately, "they" are unlikely to read this thread. I would suggest trying, when possible, to educate them. I know I do, when I get the opportunity to talk to them. The ones who are simply clueless can probably be induced to change their behaviour. The ones who are truely stupid, or who are inherently ass****s, probably can't be reached.

And it bears repeating, there are also sailors who are somewhat ignorant about how hard it can be for big ships to see and avoid them. Clueless and/or rude people travel in all kinds of vessels, not just kayaks.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by AK_sailor

It appears to me that most of the kayakers who have posted on this thread (who if they are one this thread at all are probably also sailors) are aware of the problem. We try to make ourselves visible, follow the rules of the road, and maintain some common courtesy to other boaters.

The other "they" you refer to are clueless about how difficult they are to see, and are ignorant of COLREGS. A smaller percentage of "they" are also rude and obnoxious. Unfortunately, "they" are unlikely to read this thread. I would suggest trying, when possible, to educate them. I know I do, when I get the opportunity to talk to them. The ones who are simply clueless can probably be induced to change their behaviour. The ones who are truely stupid, or who are inherently ass****s, probably can't be reached.

And it bears repeating, there are also sailors who are somewhat ignorant about how hard it can be for big ships to see and avoid them. Clueless and/or rude people travel in all kinds of vessels, not just kayaks.

Yep.

There you have it.

[HappySeagull]

not to aggravate,but an unwritten rule like Might is Right that will get a thousand gilnetters hopping mad.their #1 written rule would be "we're fishing we can't move!"
Anyways,to state the best case offered so far?(And it's not mine,by the way.)
..given the kayak lights are the clue?

at night,
Imotoring and
a)the kayak has no lights.It's a sitting duck and is crushed if it can't scuttle away.That's where the night/and/or low visibility is different from day.If you can't see it,you can't avoid it.Doesn't wash in good visibility.

b)the kayak has a white light so "go round" .It's a lit (awash is good!)obstruction.
Confusions
it's moving,so it's not anchored.It must be a rowboat or very small vessel.It has no obligations or need to be "clear as to intention" beyond it's fear .... "faster than you thought"

Sailboat sees white light and avoids....kinda difficult when the wind dies or changes etc given the kayak is hopping along at 4 knots.It has no obligation beyond saying hello. the hello helps after I've tacked four times to avoid this nuisance.

c)the kayak has sailing lights so you can tell it's direction.Better for Imotoring but still go round it... Even though it's got direction advertised,it doesn't have to or may not be able to maintain course and speed just like a sailboat...

confusions.sailboat and kayak crossing.Both have dim "sailing"lights but being slower more time is available for action.sailboat with"right of way" carries on for awhile. and really begins to notice how small this thing is and how fast...kayak gets nervous,stops,turns ...or near miss and yelling.
I don't like that!Worse,if it turned out to be a WarCanoe..

same thing apparently for a rowing sailboat?Imotoring can see sailing lights moving and avoids. ..a little suprised that it kept moving on a windless night.(a hesitating thought: perhaps all-round light is burned out? and it's a MV maneuvering )

Now,in daytime.from night...an Obstruction to go round?
apparently Yes,and,given the lights argument,so are sailboats.

Problem solved,Intent of rules is clear!
and of course, an Overtaking Obstruction keeps clear of me...

Not so clear for two "obstructions" meeting though.
still slightly unsatisfying.

[captain58sailin]

Where I work, there are many wooden canoes that are out trying to make a living commercial fishing, some are sail powered, human powered and outboard powered. They use the small LED flashlights to illuminate their presence so that we can avoid them. I always give the fishers as much room as possible, knowing how hard their life is. They do show up on the radar, faintly, if one is alert on watch and has their radar tuned properly, and the weather is cooperating then usually one can avoid a close quarters situation with the kayak.