Piracy on the Somali Coast

[markpierce]

Originally Posted by atoll

how about restabilising somalia, get their fishing industry going again,education ,schools, world bank loan.
stop supplying them with cheap weapons,let the saudis in there who are prepared to help plus have the money to do it.

It would be easier to push a limp string straightly.

So, a total blockade only allowing permissible goods to pass is a solution? Don't think that is realistic. And more nation building? Let the Somalis solve their own problems, and adopt the policy of converting their pirates to fish food in the meantime.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by markpierce

The surest solution is to not allow pirates to return home, ever. Shipping companies should have several people assigned to each ship capable of using automatic weapons and propelled grenades. A pirate vessel should be warned once that "every effort will be made to stop your illegal intentions." If the pirates don't retreat, they should be converted to fish food.

The vast majority of nations do NOT allow private civilians ( ie crew) to own or use automatic weapons and especially grenades and I for one am happy that it is so

[markpierce]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The vast majority of nations do NOT allow private civilians ( ie crew) to own or use automatic weapons and especially grenades and I for one am happy that it is so

And as a result of such restrictions on the ability to protect life and property, piracy is a profitable and flourishing business.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by markpierce

It would be easier to push a limp string straightly.

So, a total blockade only allowing permissible goods to pass is a solution? Don't think that is realistic. And more nation building? Let the Somalis solve their own problems, and adopt the policy of converting their pirates to fish food in the meantime.

Firstly the policy has been adopted by the various Naval task forces that they will engage and kill pirates they find engaged in actual acts the French and Russians in particular have done so. However where crew safety has been compromised it would seem that armed interdiction is not a favoured response and it's difficult to protect the crew in such circumstances. This does lead to the unfortunate circumstances where armed forces stand by and helplessly watch crew been taken ( as was the case with the chandlers)

However nonsense statements like converting pirates to " fish food" are just that. Do you expect naval vessels to just randomly open fire on every Somali vessel they see. Even if such vessel " might" contain arms. That's piracy in reverse. All we can do in such circumstance is board and arrest/ confiscate. Arrest has proved problematic as it generates extra- jurisdicitional issues. Confiscation of perhaps the vessel and the arms and returning the Somali crew to shore is about all that can be expected. ( though the Russians did try some novel schemes!! In that regard)

Otherwise wild west justice calls and hang em high calls. Well tell you what try that at home first.

Dave

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by markpierce

And as a result of such restrictions on the ability to protect life and property, piracy is a profitable and flourishing business.

No in a civilised society self defense is not a right to use firearms. The US bring a singular exception to this ( or perhaps simply doesn't fall under the definition!). The state is empowered to protect it's citizenry by using both it's law enforcement and military in an appropriate manner. It's Entirely right that major naval countries are not patrolling these waters protecting there citizenry. It's not appropriate for such citizenry to take the law into their own hands The various task forces if necessary need to be enlarged if necessary but the solution is not arming civilian ships. A somewhat compromise situation had developed with some shipping companies hiring Russian Spetnaz troops to act as a private guard. I situation I don't support but the Russians will hire out to anybody

I also know that very very few crew will take on the role of deploying firearms

Dave

Dave

[markpierce]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

nonsense statements like converting pirates to " fish food" are just that. Do you expect naval vessels to just randomly open fire on every Somali vessel they see.
Dave

When did I ever say to attack any Somali vessel? No, if one's home or vessel is under attack and escape with one's life and property isn't practical, deadly force is justified.

[markpierce]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

No in a civilised society self defense is not a right to use firearms. The US bring a singular exception to this ( or perhaps simply doesn't fall under the definition!). The state is empowered to protect it's citizenry by using both it's law enforcement and military in an appropriate manner. It's Entirely right that major naval countries are not patrolling these waters protecting there citizenry. It's not appropriate for such citizenry to take the law into their own hands

I disagree. I have a right to my life. Anyone wanting to take it is subject to my resistance.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by markpierce

When did I ever say to attack any Somali vessel? No, if one's home or vessel is under attack and escape with one's life and property isn't practical, deadly force is justified.

Actually again in most civilised countries deadly force Is NOT justified in such circumstances and firearm legislation prevents the acquiring of weapons for any such reason.

Dave

[atoll]

that last message was tongue in cheek, mind you when arthur balfour in 1926 drew up the balfour declaration there was a choice between palastine and madagasgar...................

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by markpierce

I disagree. I have a right to my life. Anyone wanting to take it is subject to my resistance.

I'm sorry you don't obviously understand the situation pertaining in most civilised countries. You are obviously entitled to defend yourself if attacked. However that does not extend to acquiring firearms in advance in an expectation that you might just might need it. That is the law in the vast majority of civilised countries and hence pertains to their flagged vessels as well. Untrained and inexperienced civilians have no place owning or using guns. It simply gets them killed. Armed defence of life and property is correctly put in the hands of trained law- enforcement personnel and the military

[markpierce]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I'm sorry you don't obviously understand the situation pertaining in most civilised countries. You are obviously entitled to defend yourself if attacked. However that does not extend to acquiring firearms in advance in an expectation that you might just might need it. That is the law in the vast majority of civilised countries and hence pertains to their flagged vessels as well. Untrained and inexperienced civilians have no place owning or using guns. It simply gets them killed. Armed defence of life and property is correctly put in the hands of trained law- enforcement personnel and the military

With such an attitude, no wonder why piracy and crime flourishes.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by markpierce

With such an attitude, no wonder why piracy and crime flourishes.

Firstly piracy does not flourish .it happens in a few very specific places mainly as a result of particular local conditions It's worth noting that the US regularly stops and boards ships outside it's territorial waters . This is a text book definition of piracy. The good guys are supposed to obey the law , the bad guys by definition don't and that is why " by the judgement of their peers" we get to put them in gaol.

It's also worth noting that the US had one of the highest gun crime statistics yet also has one of the highest gun ownership . I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions

By all means let's flood the waters off Somali with naval vessels that's what our taxes pay for. It would be a better use then wasting them elsewhere. The solution is not and never will be arming civilians

Dave

dave

[markpierce]

Useless.

[markpierce]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Why ... (do) you have no faith in the naval services

They are never instantaneously available.

[David M]

I agree with the OP, we do not lack the technology, we lack the will to eliminate the problem.

It's pretty pointless to rattle off methods for eliminating pirates when the will to eradicate them or their boats does not exist.

What the OP was describing is a Vulcan Phalanx cannon and its only purpose is for stopping very close incoming missiles.