Science & Technology News

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Narfi

Or you can work in any number of trades learning on the job or under a payed apprenticeship program and accomplish the same thing.

Higher education has a purpose and is needed, but it is not necessary for a majority of the young slaves to debt our society pumps out.

... but what trades have that level of demand? We always need carpenters, plumbers, welders, electricians, etc... but are those trades that easy to enter, and then find steady, decent-paying work?

Seems the trend in many trades is for lower-cost immigrants and migrant workers who arrive already trained.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

... but what trades have that level of demand? We always need carpenters, plumbers, welders, electricians, etc... but are those trades that easy to enter, and then find steady, decent-paying work?

Seems the trend in many trades is for lower-cost immigrants and migrant workers who arrive already trained.

Heavy equipment operators are always in demand .

[GordMay]

How to set net-zero targets that work

Commitments to reduce net greenhouse-gas emissions to zero are essential to meet Paris climate agreement targets, and to save the world. But plans are hard to compare, and definitions are loose, write [1] climate scientist Joeri Rogelj and three colleagues. They offer a checklist [1] for countries and companies that want to set rigorous, fair and transparent net-zero targets.
And, in a supplementary article [2], they detail ten guidelines for gold-standard net-zero goals.

[1] “Net-zero emissions targets are vague: three ways to fix” ~ by Joeri Rogelj et al
To limit warming, action plans from countries and companies must be fair, rigorous and transparent.
➥ https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00662-3

[2] “Net-zero targets are too opaque”
➥ https://media.nature.com/original/ma...662-3/18965644



Related:

“Emissions are still rising: ramp up the cuts” ➥ https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07585-6

“A case for transparent net-zero carbon targets” ➥ https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-021-00095-w

“Eight priorities for calculating the social cost of carbon” ➥ https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00441-0

“Emissions – the ‘business as usual’ story is misleading” ➥ https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00177-3

‘Climate neutral’ is a lie — abandon it as a goal ➥ https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00543-9

[Midnight Son]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

... but what trades have that level of demand? We always need carpenters, plumbers, welders, electricians, etc... but are those trades that easy to enter, and then find steady, decent-paying work?

Seems the trend in many trades is for lower-cost immigrants and migrant workers who arrive already trained.

I am in a small mining city. The trades are very well compensated here. Or they would be hired by the mining company. Most of the trades in the rural area don't have the commercial work, but the ones I know are doing great.
Electricians, plumbers, carpenters, all have good homes with shops. People think the big money is around large cities, it's not, at least for the trades.

Best wishes from the far North.

[Narfi]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

... but what trades have that level of demand? We always need carpenters, plumbers, welders, electricians, etc... but are those trades that easy to enter, and then find steady, decent-paying work?

Seems the trend in many trades is for lower-cost immigrants and migrant workers who arrive already trained.

Originally Posted by newhaul

Heavy equipment operators are always in demand .

Originally Posted by Midnight Son

I am in a small mining city. The trades are very well compensated here. Or they would be hired by the mining company. Most of the trades in the rural area don't have the commercial work, but the ones I know are doing great.
Electricians, plumbers, carpenters, all have good homes with shops. People think the big money is around large cities, it's not, at least for the trades.

Best wishes from the far North.

I think there is a huge cultural and perceptional disconnect between rural and urban America.

Lake Effect, you obviously have difficulty grasping that uneducated tradesmen and women can and do live a comfortable middle class lifestyle.

I on the other hand have a hard time grasping how we have allowed the 'occupy generation' to expect that they will get wealthy by going steeply into debt for a degree and working as glorified secretaries their entire life, when every other member of their generation is also 'educated' and equally capable of typing on a computer in word processers and spreadsheets as the uneducated tradesman or local middle school student.

Now I realize that isn't the whole picture, but that is the stereotype I have in my head, and the idea you have in your head.

I grew up rural, and I moved to even more rural on my own at 17. The only job I ever had to apply for more than once was fast food, younger than that and I could work as much as I wanted and once I was on my own I worked as much as I wanted.

In my stereotype the issue is pride, and people who feel that they are 'lesser' if they are not wearing a starched shirt and noose breed more of the same, and people who are willing to do the work that needs to be done also breed more of the same.

I was watching a comedian the other day, she was probably early 30s. She said when she was young, her and her friends didn't get together and decide that they would all get trophies no matter what they did or how much effort they put out. Their parents and teachers and coaches did that to them. It isn't their fault, it was forced on them.

So what do we do about it? Sit around on the internet and moan?
I don't know what your experience is, but you aren't telling an 18-25yr old what to do. They are going to do what they want and perhaps the opposite of what you say just to prove you wrong. They have already decided they are going to city, they have already decided they are going to go to university until they can't get any more loans. Beyond that they haven't considered it, but, dang it, that is what they are going to do!

The higher education system is as corrupt or more than our political system. It is designed to rob you, rob your future, and to pump out mindless zombies regardless of what the workplace needs.

I have an 11yr old son, only child, spoiled rotten. If I can't teach him now, he will end up in the same mess.
Last fall he came to me and asked how much college costs. So we looked up some schools, universities, community colleges, etc.... and talked about it. We talked about how different programs and scholarships work to make it cheaper and easier to attend, we talked about the programs in the high school for getting credits while still in high school. We talked about two young men he looks up to, one who graduated high school with an Associates degree a couple years ago, and one who is doing the same this year, and how I did a similar thing when I was young to get my degree when I was 17.
How working hard at school when he is 11 will set him up so that he can excel when he is a teenager and get a degree for free before having to worry about his future or 4+ year degrees and carriers and interests, etc....

I talk to him frequently about the mistakes I made and how I learned growing up and as a young adult. How I wasted money, got into debt, etc... even knowing better at the time, and how I regret it now.

On his own this last summer he decided to sell ice cream and candy bars, he ordered cases from Costco, and at 3 every afternoon he would take a cooler around on his mini-bike to all the work places and sell them to workers on afternoon breaks.

We took the money he made doing that and all his saved up savings from other side jobs and birthday monies etc.... and opened an investment account. He picked 4 stocks he was interested in and now he can watch how that plays out and add to it as he does other side jobs for the neighbors. He has been shoveling a bit of snow this winter, and an older neighbor wants him to help stack wood in the spring, they went back and forth with my son saying he didn't want money, just to help out and the guy insisting he pay.

I attempt to set my hobbies up to be learning experiences for him as well, building boats and airplanes. He has helped me turn stacks of plywood and rolls of fiberglass and resin into boats he can enjoy, and we are currently turning a stack of aluminum sheets into an airplane he will learn to fly in when he is old enough. The idea is that he can see that nothing is impossible if you just do it.

It is a balancing act though, and I'm sure I get plenty wrong and there will be parts I regret, but it is the idea of the stereotype I have of the 'occupy generation' that drives me to try and teach him differently.

In the end, he will be an individual that will make his own decisions. I just hope that they will be informed and that in my effort to give him opportunities I didn't have that I also do not drive any potential opportunities away just because of my own prejudices.

He has the opportunity to witness and experience, trade work weekly or daily, visiting me, asking questions of co-workers, as well as others he shows an interest in around the village.
Will he be a mechanic like me? will he be a pilot? a hunting/fishing guide? work in the oil fields? military? lawyer? doctor? vet? entrepreneur? Even if he does decide to live in an overpriced coffin in some dirty city and work as someone's glorified secretary, Ill be proud of him, and want him to be able to make the best of the life he chooses. That means debt free, enslaved to no one.

sorry, long meaningless rant....
TLDR
Nearly any carrier path in America can be middle class if debt free and nearly any carrier path in America can be a struggle when needlessly buried in debt. First the next generation needs to be taught financial wisdom, second the education system needs an overhaul to prevent the ridiculous debt incurred on our children for meaningless degrees that will not benefit them.

[Midnight Son]

Calling Tradesmen and women uneducated, is calling for one hell of a fight.

[Narfi]

Originally Posted by Midnight Son

Calling Tradesmen and women uneducated, is calling for one hell of a fight.

I think you missed the invisible air quotes.... :P
Don't think I'll go back and edit though

[NPCampbell]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

No sooner is it said than we are given the perfect example. Thanks NP... .

Not a prob. I try to do my part in resisting the current crop of ridiculous virtue signaling topics.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Narfi

I think there is a huge cultural and perceptional disconnect between rural and urban America.

Lake Effect, you obviously have difficulty grasping that uneducated tradesmen and women can and do live a comfortable middle class lifestyle.

. . ..

But what percentage of people without college, become prosperous tradesmen?

The wage gap between college educated and high school educated people is huge, and getting bigger all the time:

Attachment 234674
See: https://www.pewresearch.org/social-t...ng-to-college/
"For those who question the value of college in this era of soaring student debt and high unemployment, the attitudes and experiences of today’s young adults—members of the so-called Millennial generation—provide a compelling answer. On virtually every measure of economic well-being and career attainment—from personal earnings to job satisfaction to the share employed full time—young college graduates are outperforming their peers with less education. And when today’s young adults are compared with previous generations, the disparity in economic outcomes between college graduates and those with a high school diploma or less formal schooling has never been greater in the modern era."

Some college degrees are useless, but even more college-less careers are useless, especially expecting to live a middle class life with neither skills nor higher education, which almost doesn't exist now. Fewer and fewer people without university education are able to live a "comfortable middle class life".


We live in an increasingly knowledge- and information-based economy. Higher education is not the only way to have a meaningful participation in this world. But the options to get a meaningful participation in this world without higher education are dwindling.

[Narfi]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

But what percentage of people without college, become prosperous tradesmen?

Any statistic can be twisted, and asking the wrong question twists it even before you get actual data.....

Certifications etc... aren't just handed to you, you still have to want them, work for them, etc....

A more interesting question would be what is the ratio of Americans with a bachelors degree work in the field of their degree in comparison to Certified tradesmen working in their field of certification.

Even that isn't a perfect question, but I think it gets closer to the truth than yours.

[Narfi]

What you are showing is the end result and saying the egg came first, I see it and say the chicken came first.....
IMO someone with good work ethic and habits is more likely to get a degree, the personal ethics and habits that got them that degree also see them more likely to succeed in their professional carriers.

In the same way, someone that is too lazy and undriven to even apply to college in the first place, is also going to see those ethics and habits effect their professional carriers, how they advance in whatever workplace they are in and even the ability to hold down minimum wage jobs.

An employer can use the presence or absence of a degree to determine eligibility in hiring, but once their foot is in the door it becomes useless, they have to stand on their own two feet. Because of this it is easier for a driven individual with good work habits and ethics to get into a trade and be successful than into a profession driven by the false economy of the corrupt education system, however they would do just as well at either given the opportunity.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Narfi

Lake Effect, you obviously have difficulty grasping that uneducated tradesmen and women can and do live a comfortable middle class lifestyle.

I on the other hand have a hard time grasping how we have allowed the 'occupy generation' to expect that they will get wealthy by going steeply into debt for a degree and working as glorified secretaries their entire life, when every other member of their generation is also 'educated' and equally capable of typing on a computer in word processers and spreadsheets as the uneducated tradesman or local middle school student.

Now I realize that isn't the whole picture, but that is the stereotype I have in my head, and the idea you have in your head....

Ah, the perils of assumptions.

Although I have some university, I spent the first half of my career in something I "apprenticed" in starting from age 16. The second half of my career was in internet programming, self-taught. Many would consider that a glorified trade...

I'm currently studying to recertify in Marine Electrical... there's no question about that being a trade, right?

So I feel that yes I know both sides of this quite well.

And your take on the "occupy generation" shows that you have about zero grasp of why someone would want to go onto post-secondary education, the HUGE range of different courses and approaches, their wildly differing earning potential, and the (also wildly varying) value to society of these graduates.

TLDR
Nearly any carrier path in America can be middle class if debt free and nearly any carrier path in America can be a struggle when needlessly buried in debt. First the next generation needs to be taught financial wisdom, second the education system needs an overhaul to prevent the ridiculous debt incurred on our children for meaningless degrees that will not benefit them.

I totally agree that not everyone needs or wants to get a university degree. At the same time, and despite some glowing stories here, I've observed that the trades are sometimes hard to enter, apprenticeships can be scarce, and the first decade can be financially precarious if the trade (eg construction trades) are subject to cyclical work patterns. It's also harder to survive in a major city on the average trade income.

Midnight Son - the acid test is: in your small northern town, are there enough apprenticeships and entry-level jobs that the local kids stick around? Or are they forced to leave town to find work? Do their parents chase them out - eg "Son - I did alright, but you can do better. Go to uni, follow your dream..."

On preview: DH has provided more of the economic reality, particularly the earning power of certain degrees (and certain schools).

[Narfi]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

assumptions.

I am very aware I make assumptions, and do my best to mitigate that, however I know it is nearly impossible. Still I do my best to see all sides to the best of my ability.

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

I totally agree that not everyone needs or wants to get a university degree.

At its root, all I am trying to say is in agreement with this statement. (I would also say that it is very necessary for some and for some fields) The problem is that our society pushes university and debt on our children which I (probably too strongly overcompensating) push back against.

The debt culture needs to change.
The corrupt education system needs reform.
The corrupt political system needs reform.

We may not be in agreement with how, but I think we can agree that we want the best for our upcoming generations.
(I like to 'assume' the best in people, even when in disagreement I tend to think or hope their motivation is good)

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Narfi

Any statistic can be twisted, and asking the wrong question twists it even before you get actual data.....

Certifications etc... aren't just handed to you, you still have to want them, work for them, etc....

A more interesting question would be what is the ratio of Americans with a bachelors degree work in the field of their degree in comparison to Certified tradesmen working in their field of certification.

Even that isn't a perfect question, but I think it gets closer to the truth than yours.

It's not my truth -- it's the Pew Research Center in a serious study. And look at this:


Attachment 234678


And see also:


https://www.thoughtco.com/lifetime-e...cation-3321730


None of that means that higher education is a guaranty of a good career and earnings.



Or that lack of higher education is a guaranty of failure.


With or without higher education, to build a decent career you have to plan and work at it.


Those people without a college degree who work for and achieve certifications and qualifications in highly sought-after skills are the elite of that group of people, a small percentage, just like those with law and medical degrees are, among college educated people.


I'd certainly rather have an excellent and hard-to-get qualification in some sought after trade, than have degree in French literature from a crappy state university. But that's not the only choice. I would certainly not choose to be the average high school graduate over being the average college graduate. The numbers on that speak for themselves.


The numbers not just for wealth or lifetime earnings. But on job satisfaction, too.

[Narfi]

hehe, I don't think we are in disagreement, but I still see chicken while you see egg.