Still Working (and winning) at Age 82

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I've yet to see one of these studies that keeps the standard of living constant. Go back and reread some of the posts describing how the modern standard of living has increased to see how that works.

Also most of these studies are focused on justifying higher minimum wages.

So, by your logic we should still insist on people using outhouses and model-T cars.

Of course the standard of living is not constant. That's the whole point of a cost-of-living analysis. It uses a standard bucket of goods and services that define a normal or middle class existence in our societies.

ALL credible research shows the cost of living has increased disproportionally to wage increases. I don't know why you refuse to accept this fact.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

So, by your logic we should still insist on people using outhouses and model-T cars.

Of course the standard of living is not constant. That's the whole point of a cost-of-living analysis. It uses a standard bucket of goods and services that define a normal or middle class existence in our societies.

ALL credible research shows the cost of living has increased disproportionally to wage increases. I don't know why you refuse to accept this fact.

Again, by the time the modern social theory studies came out suggesting you needed two people working to survive, outhouses and model-T cars were a thing of the past.

More accurately compared for today, you don't need 6 big screen TVs and the latest iphone with unlimited data for every member of the family to escape poverty.

"It uses a standard bucket of goods and services that define a normal or middle class existence in our societies."

This is exactly the problem...the standard bucket of goods and services is being changed to support the predetermined solution. If you don't set a baseline, you can make the results say anything you want them to say.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Again, by the time the modern social theory studies came out suggesting you needed two people working to survive, outhouses and model-T cars were a thing of the past.

More accurately compared for today, you don't need 6 big screen TVs and the latest iphone with unlimited data for every member of the family to escape poverty.

"It uses a standard bucket of goods and services that define a normal or middle class existence in our societies."

This is exactly the problem...the standard bucket of goods and services is being changed to support the predetermined solution. If you don't set a baseline, you can make the results say anything you want them to say.

Please cite where any CPI calculation includes "6 big screen TVs and the latest iphone with unlimited data."

From Bank of Canada explanation:

The Inflation Calculator uses monthly consumer price index (CPI) data from 1914 to the present to show changes in the cost of a fixed "basket" of consumer purchases. These include food, shelter, furniture, clothing, transportation, and recreation. An increase in this cost is called inflation.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Please cite where any CPI calculation includes "6 big screen TVs and the latest iphone with unlimited data."

From Bank of Canada explanation:

I didn't see outhouses on their site if we are going to be challenging hyperbole.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I didn't see outhouses on their site if we are going to be challenging hyperbole.

You're the one who insists there can be no change in the standard of living to have a legitimate comparison. Since CPI dates back to at least 1915 there were still a lot of outhouses in use.

But fair enough. No more hyperbole. I'm happy to address the basic fact that the cost of living has exceeded the increase in wages. This is fundamentally why it now requires two incomes to sustain a typical household in Canada and the USA (and most other developed countries). It also explains why savings rates have dipped over time, and why most people now live with massive debt loads, and many from paycheque to paycheque.

This little drift began when you made a categorical claim: "the majority of families can get by just fine on a single income and that hasn't really changed." This is false by all measures, research and data.

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by thomm225

I wish I knew the answer to the retirement question, but I think it's different strokes for different folks.

I think you have the question and the answer right here. The correct answer to the retirement question is different for different folks. The correct answer for me and my wife is probably not the same as the correct answer for you, or anyone else. But it works for us, and that is really all that matters.

[Mook1e]

I'm still trying to decide when I'll retire 'again.'
I'm currently planning to at least attempt to 'retire for good' in 36 months (more like 40.)
I retired from the military with a good pension 2 years ago, but started another job as a 'fed' immediately. If I spend right and save right, in 40 months I'll have no debt/no mortgage (which is all the debt I have), and 2 US gov pensions at 49 (the second won't start until 58.) My wife and I intend to liveaboard for a couple of years and take some classes in whatever we want (thanks GI Bill) then take life as it comes. I may do some consulting for a month or so at a time if I get bored, but we won't HAVE to work ever again. I think that flexibility is really what we and probably most people want.
We didn't necessarily live ultra frugally, but we didn't spend in excess or save and invest a whole lot either. I'm doing both (saving and investing) now while I'm earning so much.
For now, we plan to purchase and live on a catamaran, but who knows how our choice may change based on our growing experience base and life circumstances. In any case, I loved/love my work, but it definitely doesn't define who I am.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

I think you have the question and the answer right here. The correct answer to the retirement question is different for different folks. The correct answer for me and my wife is probably not the same as the correct answer for you, or anyone else. But it works for us, and that is really all that matters.

There's your answer .

[Westcliffe01]

I arrived in the US by plane on a work contract on 28 Nov 2003. I work in Michigan and have also spend 4 years tied to a plant in Dayton OH. I can tell you with absolute certainty that the work landscape has changed dramatically in the Midwest during that period.


Right when I arrived, we had a union strike that involved artisans in the prototype shop at the development center I work at. The strike went on for over 18 months and failed because the strikers did not inspire sympathy from the general population. Their corvettes and Harley Davidsons lined both sides of the road in an area with a household income of around $40k, while they striked for better wages and benefits. It was hard to believe how bureaucratic the operation was. I had to write a work order to get a screw put into the wall to hang a picture in my office. If I touched something in a fixture or machine someone would file a union grievance because I was threatening their job.

I also spent a lot of time developing suppliers for manufacturing equipment and training them how to build our equipment, this was in the Flint area. There were multiple huge Delphi and GM factories building cars or parts of cars in the area. They were the primary customers of the suppliers I was working with. Post 2009 recession, I went back to Flint not for business reasons, but buying items on Craigslist, it was pretty unbelievable. All the GM factories were gone. Physically gone. They had not just abandoned the factories, but actually torn them down just leaving the concrete slabs on the ground. I think it was to reduce the property tax liability. The same with all the former Delphi factories. All of those reliable well paid unionized jobs gone forever.


When I was assigned to the factory in Dayton it was exactly the same thing. The factory I was working at was at a place called "Delco Park". The concrete foundations extended out many acres in every direction from where the left over factory was standing. Huge multi acre parking lots with a few cars parked nearest to the admission gate. If one uses google maps, one can go back in time and see when the factories still stood. Same story, all the parts formerly made in the US gone forever, now made in China. The factories physically demolished to reduce property taxes.


Even overseas, companies like Perkins, they have continuously shrunk their operational footprint. The same people crammed into ever smaller and smaller office spaces, smaller cubicles and desks. The previous buildings demolished because of the cost of paying real estate taxes. At the BMW development center in Munich the engineers had back to back desks only slightly larger than what I had at school There is simply no way I would work in that environment


I look at my own situation. I earn a pretty good income, but insurance on my car is never less than $100/month, I think we have the highest car insurance rates in the US. My property taxes are about $400/month on a 1300sqft home on 1/3 acre and for most of the time I have lived in it, the house market value has been $140k. I bought it for $203K in 2006 and it hit the $130k value in 2009 and has sat at that level until about 2 years ago when prices finally started rising because there has basically been NO home building going on since 2007, so there is finally a shortage. Insuring my house used to cost about $700/yr when I bought it, but during my divorce there was a dog bite incident and thereafter it has been $2500/yr and I cant get anyone else to insure me even though I don't have the dog involved in the incident (it has her dog and she still has it) but its me who gets stuck with the bill. We have a well, so no water bill, but there is a sewage bill for close to $100/month. The mortgage payment is about $1350/month.


I haven't bought a new car since I have lived in the US. The most I ever spent was for a used F250 at $26.5k which was needed for towing a gooseneck trailer and my backhoe legally. Generally, my commuter cars have been about $4000 each, in recent times it seems more is needed as one doesn't seem to be able to get a reliable car for that much anymore. I do all the maintenance myself.

The most expensive mistake I made so far was my second wife, she cost me close to $300k in paying off pre-marital debt and then for her endless medical education, from a 2 year nursing degree to getting her NP certification, at which point she took me to the cleaners to extract whatever she could get the judge to pry out of my hands... Unfortunately I will never get the 6 years of my life back, nor the additional 3 years that it took to pay off all the new debt created by the divorce order. Im now finally about to list the house and I might do slightly better than break even after paying the realtor. What is scary is that I'm probably in the top 20% in the area. Most people are doing much, much worse.


My 3rd wife and I bought an abandoned house about 2 years ago in town. It sold for $29500. About 1000sq ft with a separate free standing double garage. House built in 1920, so 100 years old. It had a roof on it that was probably 10 years old. The house needed every kind of work you could imagine, but a new angle for myself, was that typically, the permit and inspection fees cost more than the materials needed and sometimes more than the materials and labor needed in order to do the renovation. Wiring permit has a fee for every breaker in the panel, every plug, every light fixture, every switch. the permit fee was higher than most of the online estimates provided for complete house wiring for the size of house. The same for plumbing. Oh, BTW inspection costs by the building dept are billed at $280/hr + travel expenses. This is in a town with 30 000 inhabitants, not some mega city like Chicago... Needless to say, I need a permit to work on siding, windows, doors, in addition to the usual electrical and plumbing. In the part of town where the house is located, the median household income is probably closer to $30k/yr since its either old retirees living on social security or renters in section 8 housing.


So don't get me wrong, I am glad to be in the US. But in large parts of the country, I most certainly don't see anyone except those on public assistance having any improvement in their standard of living. To the contrary, roads have not seen significant repairs in close to 17 years that I have been here and you have to constantly dodge potholes so as not to wreck your car. How people ride motorcycles in this mess I have no idea. The common thread is that one has to investigate other locations/states/counties to determine if taxpayer money is being spent more effectively or at least in a way that agrees with yourself and then sell up and move there. The political systems seems corrupted to the point where it seem impossible to effect any change once it gets past a certain point. I have watched recall elections here for people clearly violating their oath of office and they always fail, and even if they win, the people involved manage to get themselves re-elected the next cycle.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

You're the one who insists there can be no change in the standard of living to have a legitimate comparison. Since CPI dates back to at least 1915 there were still a lot of outhouses in use.

I never said there could be "no" changes but every time I've looked into one of these studies, the modern standard of living is drastically higher...yet we get claims that things are getting worse and we must have the government step in and fix it for us.

Once you get beyond a 10-20yr spread, comparing CPI to determine standard of living is sketchy at best. You need to start looking at actual lifestyle and availability of items...but that doesn't push the big government agenda.

[Group9]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

I think you have the question and the answer right here. The correct answer to the retirement question is different for different folks. The correct answer for me and my wife is probably not the same as the correct answer for you, or anyone else. But it works for us, and that is really all that matters.

And, the thought of retirement can be scary, regardless of the adequacy of retirement finances. I remember the anxiety my father had, when he decided to retire, and I didn't understand it at the time. I mean, how could you be anxious about stopping working and doing what you wanted to do every day?

He was a mess for about a year and a half, and then he really got back into his passion for life which was hunting, and fishing, and then I never saw him happier from that time until he passed away.

When I retired, I felt that same anxiety. The transition from work to retirement is angst inspiring for sure, and I sure understand people who really have a hard time pulling that trigger. Many people's identities are completely based on what they do for a living, and it takes a while to get a new one when you retire.

I found myself slight embarrassed at times, to tell people I was retired when I was still in my 50's. Our society expects you to work as long as you can, with the ones who die at their desk viewed as having contributed the most to that society. Early retirees are often looked at as slackers, no matter how well you have invested your money, or how good your income stream is.

If you retire early and do it right, you are trading money and things, for memories and experiences. Which is more important of those choices, can only be answered by the individual, and there is no right answer.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Group9

...I found myself slight embarrassed at times, to tell people I was retired when I was still in my 50's. Our society expects you to work as long as you can, with the ones who die at their desk viewed as having contributed the most to that society. Early retirees are often looked at as slackers, no matter how well you have invested your money, or how good your income stream is.

So true. It's facinating to me how quickly this question comes up when meeting new people: "So, what do you do?" And by "do" we mean how do you make money. It's a big part of the way we assign worth and value to people.

Given this, it's no wonder so many people find it hard to retire. It's not just about income. It's about identity and worth in the eyes of others, and possibly in your own eyes as well.

This is why many suggest that retirement should be seen as another skill to develop. It takes time to learn how to cruise. So too should one expect it to take time to learn how to retire.

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I never said there could be "no" changes but every time I've looked into one of these studies, the modern standard of living is drastically higher...yet we get claims that things are getting worse and we must have the government step in and fix it for us.

Once you get beyond a 10-20yr spread, comparing CPI to determine standard of living is sketchy at best. You need to start looking at actual lifestyle and availability of items...but that doesn't push the big government agenda.

Ah... I understand. This brings to mind a good book you should read: The Death of Expertise: The Campaign Against Established Knowledge and Why it Matters

[barnakiel]

But hey! The standard might be lower for some of us but higher for others.


Why assume that one is in the privileged cast?


Lose some win some ;-)


b.

[barnakiel]

Embarrassed?


Of what?


Of doing of what every animal does? Living free and enjoying life?


Strange place where you need to feel embarrassed of living the natures way.


I think what puzzles many is that some people retire early, disregarding their lack of any pension fund (retirement fund). Simply deciding to do the important bits while health and stamina last.


Live now, die later.


b.

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

"So, what do you do?" And by "do" we mean how do you make money. It's a big part of the way we assign worth and value to people.

Which is why, neighborhood of 30 years ago I started answering that question with, "I sail, I fish, I hunt, I golf, I read, and sometimes I work as a database administrator."