West Marine Jumps on it's Privates

[Martinini]

And there are still people out there that don't believe Men walked on the Moon!

[GeoPowers]

Wow, I learned a good deal with this thread...what an eye opener! Thanks for reminding me of the importance of candor and class, and reminding me to do a really good job at work.

[camaraderie]

Originally Posted by anotherT34C

In the past, I've meticulously deconstructed and thoroughly debunked denier claims.

Really...please deconstruct this statement sent to the American Physical Society a couple of months ago and explain to me how the signatories I list are "deniers" or "believes" rather than world reknowned scientists who have studied the issues and arrived at a different conclusion. I include a few of the signatories only to preserve space here but you are welcome to review the full list here: Signatures as of 22 July 2009 There are a few clunkers on the list but 90%+ are the real deal. Here's the statement they wish the APS to make:
click to enlarge screenshot.


Harold M. Agnew

Director, Los Alamos National Laboratory (1970 -1979)

President, General Atomics Corporation (1979 -1984)

White House Science Councilor (1982 -1989)

E.O. Lawrence Award 1966, Enrico Fermi Award 1978, Los Alamos Medal (with H.A. Bethe) 2001

Member National Academy of Sciences, National Academy of Engineering, Fellow APS, AAAS



Moorad Alexanian

Professor of Physics and Physical Oceanography
University of North Carolina Wilmington

Member Mexican Academy of Sciences, American Scientific Affiliation



Robert H. Austin

Professor of Physics

Princeton University
Fellow APS, AAAS; APS Council: 1991-1994, 2007-2010

Member National Academy of Sciences, American Association of Arts and Sciences



Franco Battaglia, PhD
Professor of Chemical Physics and Environmental Chemistry
University of Modena, Italy
APS Life-member

Barry L. Berman

Columbian Professor and Chair

Physics Department

The George Washington University

Fellow APS

Arie Bodek

George E. Pake Professor of Physics

University of Rochester

Wolfgang K. H. Panofsky Prize in Experimental Particle Physics (APS) 2004

Fellow APS

Ivar Giaever

Institute Professor, School of Engineering and School of Science

Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute

Nobel Prize in Physics 1973

Fellow APS, Member National Academy of Science, National Academy of Engineering

Sultan Hameed
Professor of Atmospheric Science
School of Marine and Atmospheric Sciences
Stony Brook University, New York

William Happer

Cyrus Fogg Brackett Professor of Physics

Princeton University

Fellow APS, AAAS

Member National Academy of Sciences

Salvatore Torquato

Professor of Chemistry and the Princeton Center for Theoretical Science,

Materials Institute and Applied & Computational Mathematics

Princeton University

2009 APS David Alder Lectureship Award in the Field of Material Physics

Fellow APS
________________________

Perhaps seeing these learned names including a Nobel Prize Winner willing to pubically associate themselves with the above statement may open a few eyes that believed Big Al when he said there was consensus.
Of course Big Al has a Nobe Prize also...

I respect those who say "We want to know what we can do to ameliorate the situation if this global warming stuff is true. " Fine...study it and figure stuff out. But when it goes from studying something to spending TRILLIONS and taxing us to get them... (Waxman-Markey)... I object. The science is simply not there....the models don't work... and there has been no warming in the last 10 years...so now they call it climate change.

[captmick39]

Originally Posted by Bash

If there's anything in Randy's letter that ought to alarm cruisers, it's the rate at which acidification is exceeding the projections of oceanographers. The fact that coral systems are not going to be able to handle much more of this is based on rudimentary carbonate chemistry.

About 1/3 of the carbon dioxide that comes out of your tailpipe ends up being stored in the ocean. As the level of carbon dioxide goes up in the oceanic carbonate system, the pH level goes down. (Low pH = "acidification.") When this happens, the saturation level of carbonate materials such as calcite gets so low that it becomes nearly impossible for coral polyps to build reefs.

This is science, folks. It's not even upper-division science. It's been studied in thousands of aquaria in thousands of collegiate labs around the world, and there's such a strong scientific consensus about the effects of oceanic acidification that anyone who tells you different can honestly be labeled a "crackpot."

Acidification is happening now, and we're watching it. It's so simple to test that even the guy who cleans your pool can do it. We can already see the results in places like Bermuda, where coral reefs now occupy 50% less space than they did prior to industrialization.

We should be thankful that people in the business community, like our fellow cruiser Randy Repass, are finally starting to get it.

It's actually called "political expediency"..."get on board, and we won't burn Your dammed huts(make that WestMarine/BoatUS Stores)down"
-Uncle Sam

Bash,
there's only 1 thing wrong with Your theorm...
Methane.

Naturally produced, on the ocean floors, by our "Mother Earth" itself...a real "greenhouse gas"(on steroids)...creates 25x the Co2 of all the pollutants (man made) if You consider (as the EPA does now) co2 an actual "pollutant". I'd guess we need to have a talking to the SUN, since the warming of the ocean(s) has already been determined to be caused by additional solar radiation, not man(or other, naturally occuring)made atmospheric "changes".
At least that's what watching Discovery(Walter Chronkite's brain child)& the History Channel tell me, from the same renowned sicentists who signed their names stating "global warming" is now actually "climate Change" (as in collecting checks from the UN, w/a worldwide TAX & thereafter CONTROL agenda) tell us most currently.

That methane...what do we (or Randy & BoatUS/WestMarine) do about IT?
WELL?

How DO we control the output of the SUN...please fill me in?
Inquiring minds want to know;
Since we have zero political influence over the polluting of the Chinese or Indians who are both exceeding our country's former record productions of pollutants...if we can't "manage" them, how do we, exactly, manage our SUN?

[anotherT34C]

Cam, I've discussed this subject with you in the past, and I'm sorry, but I don't consider you teachable.

[captmick39]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

Changeable Weather??? You guys think you've got problems - over here the Sun dissapears. every day to get it back we have to sacrifice a Goat.

So what sacrifices do your priests say that your gods require?

You think You have it bad?
I've been to Alaska (You can see Russia from there, on really CLEAR DAYS) and the sun disappears for MONTHS....I finally figured out the problem...no goats.

Worse yet the sun comes Back...for MONTHS! No Night...
Only a Narcoleptic can get any sleep! (will baby goats fix that, or is it chickens?)

What a pain....although those who live there told me "global worming" & "climate change" had nothing to do with it...been that way forever (or at least the last 10 generations of innuit natives...before that, well, they weren't real big on writing things down...no cave walls, the ice melts in the spring, You get the picture.

Real COLD TOO...they didn't buy in to the "warming" idea too much(pronounced like written above, nope, that Wasn't a typo, "worming"). Kept pointing out the polar bears (EVERYWHERE) saying "rest of the world says they're getting 'extinct'...more like US instead, as they think WE'RE really tastey & there's more of 'em now than, well, for the last 10 generations here...still can't tell ya much about before then?"

[roverhi]

Making better use of our resources and polluting less is a noble undertaking and probably necessary given the spiking global population. Declaring that something that is absolutely necessary to life is a pollutant is utter folly, however. Cap and trade is just an excuse for Al Gore to make more money and the government to take over the economy. Kyoto was and is a joke. None of the signatories have done squat to meet its proposed limits and most have greatly increased their production of green house gases. The US does use a lot of fossil fuels but then we also have an economy that dwarfs all others. Even with our use of fossil fuels we pollute less than most others. Of course, we have cut down on that pollution by exporting a lot of that overseas along with the jobs that went with it. Our dealing with CO2 will mean a further loss of jobs and a major hit to the economy. But worse will do virtually nothing to ameliorate the production of CO2. Btw, CO2 makes up a whopping 0.036 percent of the atmosphere and man is responsible for only 14% of the surplus CO2 or .005 percent.

As far as global warming, what is the evidence that it is causing problems. The Antarctic Ice Cap is increasing. Greenlands Ice Cap is increasing. The Arctic has been subjected to an 18 year cycle of warm water current that has decreased the Ice coverage there but that current is about stop. Even with the loss of ice in the Arctic, Polar Bear, about the only animal that hunts man, population is going up, not down. Even with the approximate 2 degree F increase in temperature over the past 150 years, the ocean level has risen a virtually unmeasurable amount.

If you seriously want to do something about Global Warming, start beating the drum for nuclear power. It is our only viable source of non CO2 energy. Solar and wind are pipe dreams that will never produce more than a tiny fraction of our electrical needs. Coal is by far the cheapest means to generate electricity but we all know that it has it's problems without a major advance in technology. Natural Gas is relatively clean but still produces as much CO2 as any other fossil fuel generating plant. In any case, Natural Gas should be used for transportation not electrical generation. Oil is too expensive to use anywhere but here in the Islands and also is a large producer of CO2. So lets hear it for the neutrons and protons colliding and making clean energy.

Okay, lets all drive electric cars. Sorry folks, but if only 5% of the current vehicle fleet converted to electricity, we'd experience major electricity shortages. Brown outs and total power failures would become common place without massive increases in our electrical generating and transmission capacities.

So do what you can to live as cleanly as possible but don't get too smug about the effect that you are having. Just contemplate, what is better: global warming or global cooling. Somehow don't you northern tier sailors would be happy under a mile of ice.

Aloha
Peter O.

[captmick39]

Originally Posted by texwards

My sentiments exactly. It is time for people to acknowledge the incredible amount of damage that we are doing to our environment as a world crises, instead of as the media propaganda that many would have us believe it to be. Whether or not you 'believe' in global warming is not the issue.
Roger that! It's getting those 2.5 BILLION Chinese, AND those 390Million Indians (in a country the size of TEXAS) TO AGREE, with YOU. The issue is that we are (and have been for some time) polluting our air, land, and waters with toxic chemicals, and we have seen, and will continue to see, issues because of this: acid rain, smog, higher asthma rates , ocean acidification, and [if you 'believe?' -global warming]
& Each of the above cited countries is already right now, at their "inception period" of industrial revolution exceeding our peak pollution production years of the 50's through the '80's...India is about double our best efforts to screw things up back then, right now...China? about 15x already, & of course bringing a new coal fired power plant on line EVERY WEEK, with over 200 UNDER CURRENT Construction...I don't think anybody seems to understand that our MINESCULE "attempts" here are simply an effort in futility, toward personal and national bankruptcy, and the equivilant of "pissing up a rope"?
There are viable and readily available fossil-fuel alternatives that need to be implemented and , I believe, many others that are waiting to be discovered. Tougher restrictions and requirements along with public awareness are exactly what we need to help to make this happen.
& if they weren't $60k,(now, only $23k, new) I'd have bought a 2003 Rav4E(all electric SUV/Crossover...200 mi. range, governed 78 mph top speed, were Killed off by GM selling the Battery Patent to Chevron, who sold to Texaco, who sold to Citgo, & we all know who owns Citgo...Chavez. Next DAY, Toyota got a phone call & Letter...no mo batteries, and pull that car off the road. Chevy VOLT my ear, we had an AWESOME PURE ELECTRIC VEHICLE 6 YEARS Ago folks...don't let 'em blow smoke up Your fannies
A large majority of the population does seem to be unconcerned and/or in denial of such problems. So, to me, the idea that a successful entrepreneur such as Randy Repass would risk a (possibly very large) loss of revenue in order to do his part to save our oceans is both a refreshing and an encouraging gesture.

It was a "posturing" gesture, nothing more, and despicable for a representative of boat owners...not too many of our vessels run exclusively on wind, solar or batteries...do they? Did You think about the door being opened to remove You from Your "pride & joy"? nah, nobody EVER thinks about the REAL, LONG TERM Consequences of choices like these...

It's not the majority (or ALL) of our population that matters...we're now officially pip squeaks in the world equation of polluters(not that this is a BAD detail) as there's 320million of us total, give or take a couple dozen million illegal aliens...the Chinese AND Indians, combined are 2 BILLION. Do the math. That's a mere 7 to 1(as of right now) & won't it be fun when they all (or even a reasonable #) get vehicles...on top of those diesel generators powering so many of those factories(producing 24/7) and all those new coal plants (more than the USofA x2 will be on line by December...w/4 x what we have Nationwide, in just 2 short years.

Ignoring the white elephant parading around in the front yard is a simple guarantee of what's left of the grass trampled.
Everybody looks out the window, however until we engage the elephant polluters, we're deck chair re-arrangers on the titanic. Then again, where were YOUR SHOES made?

[captmick39]

Originally Posted by unbusted67

I'll ask again whose financial gain?

Busted,
I'll type it real slow...

ALGORE...he designed the whole "carbon credits" program so that folks can CONTINUE to POLLUTE, while simply PAYING to do so (like himself, using about 200x more electricity than You do each month...unless of course YOUR BILL Exceeds $6k a month?)...

Dirtier businesses, either using more electricity, producing dirty electricity (coal) but buying "clean/green" electricity to offset the dirty, and who controls the "exchange" of all these carbon "credits"? AlGore...heck, it WAS His idea...don't You read...or was it only the movies You went to?

Oh, and Yes, both OUR and the UN Governments get their cut in a major way...taxes. SInce the power company (and everyone who relies on what they sell, to sell what THEY Sell/make/do down the "food chain" of the economic system) HAS to pay MORE just to be able to deliver their "product/service" to the end user, prices go up...for everyone, for everything...related to electricity...including YOUR bill. 2x, minimum...further up from there.

Now carry it over to gasoline, diesel, kerosene, fuel oil, etc. Same on the fuels side. Less fuel efficient vehicles, like a fat tax for the tubbies out there in a Nationalized health care system, SIMPLY MUST PAY MORE. Driving an SUV will become criminal sooner than I ever formerly dreamed in this lifetime, judging by some of the responses in this thread...doesn't MATTER that You have 5 kids or are carpooling...

Now carry it over to the Mall, where they have the audacity to run AIR CONDITIONING...like those old folks who're just supposed to DIE with DIGNITY instead of having the audacity to request a knee replacement at the ripe old age of say "70"? How dare they...they just need to go DIE. Same goes for the MALL...IF they want to run that A/C so that all the merchants customers (like YOU?) can walk around in a "comfortable" environment...they MUST pay MORE to provide that service, the tab gets passed on to the merchants, the merchants pass it on to You.

Remember last summer $4.50 a gallon Gas? Well imagine EVERYTHING goes up that much...
that's "Carbon Credits" & how "cap & Trade/TAX" works. The biggest seizure of a country's wealth, directly FROM it's citizenry in the history of the world.

Oh, & pretty much exactly as described above, it's already been passed by our house of reps. WHO Exactly GAINS & gets all that Money?
You can bank on the fact that it won't be YOU...You just get to pay, whether in taxes or doubled and tripled costs for everything it takes just to LIVE....however I might get a little richer, Progress Energy here says they'll be paying possibly as high as 60 cents a kwh for our green juice...check Your bill, I guarantee that's 4x what You pay now for Your electricity. Like the loonies on here begging for destruction of our country, I'm right there with 'em, for completely different reasons. I'm on the ALGORE side of the equation, though I never intended to be, it sure feels real nice about now.
I'm also smart enough to understand that those who profit off YOUR (& the others unknowing here and throughout our entire country) demise will soon enough be targets also...middle class? Class warfare has been being raged for decades, soon enough the masses will be taught to hate us filthy rich boat owners.

[captmick39]

Originally Posted by Pblais

Hey Mick when you take your boat name seriously:


Schadenfreude - Schadenfreude (pronounced /ˈʃɑːdənfrɔɪdə/, German pronunciation: [ˈʃaːdənˌfʁɔʏ̯də]) is pleasure derived from the misfortunes of others.

I don't want to imagine where you come from.

There's no need to "imagine" Pblais, it's all around You...people everywhere, probably in slips on either side of You and condos on either side of You or houses...all full of envy and frustration for that which You have and they don't. We've had a government and society by design dividing us for last 3 decades on a constant basis...press 1 for english.

PBlais, there's a story behind it. Fools who played me for one, & I wasn't. Needless to say it wasn't me who wound up w/the egg on his face or loser of some $88,000,000.oo for something they couldn't do, and lied about. All I did (kinda like this thread) is expose the truth; about it, them, the whole stinking mess. do I relish in the demise of some scumbags? Half of which are sitting at the graybar motel in Jessup Georgia, another batch cut from the same cloth soon bound for coleman florida? BANK ON IT.
Imagine that, as "where I come from". I do the right thing, to a fault. It's caused others much grief over the decades. It's also part of the reason I'm still "doing what I do", rather than flipping burgers or waiting tables/bartending(not that those aren't honorable professions).

My grandfather taught me well. He played the cello. His father was a cobbler...they moved from Lithuania to Berlin in 1933. Not the smartest move or timing being Jewish. My Grandfather wound up in Auschwitz as a concert quality cellist yanked from the philharmonic orchestra as a prodigy age 18. He played...18 hours a day, for 4 years. When the troops finally liberated him and the remainder of the survivors, he had watched over a million and a half people exterminated, yet he played, day after day, to cover the screams from the gas chambers, in an "impromptu" orchestra, assembled for the camp commandant.

Check Your history, You'll find out, like every time here or anywhere, I speak the truth. I question authority. I look skeptically at those who make false or shallow promises of "hope" and "change". I worry about "class warfare" for when we are devided, it is FOR a purpose.

The "haves", hated by the perceived "have nots", race, color, creed, "hyphenated-americans", gun owners versus gun haters, the "RICH" vs. the "middle class", the division process has been going on for decades and reaching a crescendo, right here, right now. Has a single person (besides me) posting in this thread (including You, Pblais) actually READ the legislation so many are blindly supporting, which would do NOTHING to lower greenhouse gas emissions?
Just one?
ANYBODY?
Didn't think so.
H.R. 2454: American Clean Energy and Security Act of 2009 (GovTrack.us)

a couple summaries:


The Cap and Tax Fiction - WSJ.com
(WSJ, what do THEY know about "bidness", right? this was BEFORE the House Vote)
Report: Cap-and-Trade Legislation Could Result in Huge Job Loss | workforce.com
3 million(MORE) jobs lost
again, before the vote & the stuffed in night before 390+pages(which nobody read)

Martin Feldstein - The Folly of Unilateral Cap-and-Trade - washingtonpost.com

Just remember, if You're gonna sell Your house, all energy efficient appliances AND WINDOWS, AND DOORS, etc. before You can LIST IT...& a whole new enforcement agency to come IN TO YOUR HOME to inspect it before the gov.org says "ok, now You can sell it" (like Prego's Sauce, Pblais, "it's in there".

We have the memories of gnats in this country now.


Schadenfreude...You betcha; wise beyond years. Student of history watching our country collapse in to chaos & anarchy, as those who so readily would surrender freedom for temporary "security", as Franklin said, Deserve NEITHER and will surely lose both.

Pblais, plan "b"?
Only a fool doesn't have a alternative. Been in real estate & banking entire adult life...worked w/developers long ago and made a boatload(literally)of money...early '80's; 3 family members & 2 blood brothers all went together-we have 35,000 acres in Costa Rica.

Like the developers I learned from (Cubans, former multimillionaires who had to leave with the clothes on their backs & Families), won't be around for the last hurrah. Not that obsessed w/legacy built, "stuff" can all be replaced, knowledge is locked away w/experience, freedom is the supreme creedo taught from a grandfather who had me caulking wood hulls at age 6 under his watchful eye. Plan B is boat & name says what it means.
When ignorance of the masses seeks to take all from the "haves" with intelligence, that boat, w/that name will be pointed south, making 10kts, w/a select few not looking back.
I've known these days were coming, lifelong; just wanted to believe we'd never live to see them. I was wrong, foolish, yet properly prepared. Did YOU ever think You'd live to see the government take over (or insert themselves in to the management processes OF) the banking industry, car industry, insurance industry, soon to be health care industry, or Energy industry? You do know what comes next, right?

[sailorboy1]

Does this thread really belong on this forum?

[bobsadler]

i always try and keep in mind that al gore has a b.a. with a major in "government" and rajendra pachauri - gore's co-nobel laureate and head of the i.p.c.c. - was a railway engineer

i guess the reassuring thing about this is that it proves, yet again, that b.s. can get you just about anywhere

[FrankZ]

While the topic of this thread is marginally on topic, please remember we are about cruising and boats. We are not a political debate forum, though we do allow political discussions that relate to boating and cruising directly.

It also bears mentioning we ask that posters debate the topic, not the user or personality. Taking shots at other posters does not make your point and may result in thread closures and other actions to be taken by the moderation team.

Thank you.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by bobsadler

i always try and keep in mind that al gore has a b.a. with a major in "government" and rajendra pachauri - gore's co-nobel laureate and head of the i.p.c.c. - was a railway engineer
i guess the reassuring thing about this is that it proves, yet again, that b.s. can get you just about anywhere

BS may convince some people, sometime, but not always all of us.

According to his biography, Dr. R.K. Pachauri is a little more than a mere railway engineer.
Chairman, Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC)
➥ Biography: Dr. R.K. Pachauri

A review of the cv’s of his Bureau colleagues indicates that they are also all highly qualified individuals.
➥ IPCC - Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change

According to the The Nobel Foundation, the 2007 Peace Prize was shared by the IPCC (not it’s chairman) and Al Gore.
➥ The Nobel Peace Prize 2007 - Press Release

Al Gore did graduate from Harvard University with a Bachelor of Arts degree in government cum laude; then enlisted in the Army (one "of only about a dozen of the 1,115 Harvard graduates in the Class of '69 who went to Vietnam). Gore also attended Vanderbilt Divinity School and Vanderbilt University Law School, though he never graduated either.

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by camaraderie

Really...please deconstruct this statement sent to the American Physical Society a couple of months ago and explain to me how the signatories I list are "deniers" or "believes" rather than world reknowned scientists who have studied the issues and arrived at a different conclusion. I include a few of the signatories only to preserve space here but you are welcome to review the full list here: Signatures as of 22 July 2009 There are a few clunkers on the list but 90%+ are the real deal. Here's the statement they wish the APS to make:
Attachment 9126 click to enlarge screenshot.


Harold M. Agnew

Director, Los Alamos National Laboratory (1970 -1979)

President, General Atomics Corporation (1979 -1984)

White House Science Councilor (1982 -1989)

E.O. Lawrence Award 1966, Enrico Fermi Award 1978, Los Alamos Medal (with H.A. Bethe) 2001

Member National Academy of Sciences, National Academy of Engineering, Fellow APS, AAAS



Moorad Alexanian

Professor of Physics and Physical Oceanography
University of North Carolina Wilmington

Member Mexican Academy of Sciences, American Scientific Affiliation



Robert H. Austin

Professor of Physics

Princeton University
Fellow APS, AAAS; APS Council: 1991-1994, 2007-2010

Member National Academy of Sciences, American Association of Arts and Sciences



Franco Battaglia, PhD
Professor of Chemical Physics and Environmental Chemistry
University of Modena, Italy
APS Life-member

Barry L. Berman

Columbian Professor and Chair

Physics Department

The George Washington University

Fellow APS

Arie Bodek

George E. Pake Professor of Physics

University of Rochester

Wolfgang K. H. Panofsky Prize in Experimental Particle Physics (APS) 2004

Fellow APS

Ivar Giaever

Institute Professor, School of Engineering and School of Science

Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute

Nobel Prize in Physics 1973

Fellow APS, Member National Academy of Science, National Academy of Engineering

Sultan Hameed
Professor of Atmospheric Science
School of Marine and Atmospheric Sciences
Stony Brook University, New York

William Happer

Cyrus Fogg Brackett Professor of Physics

Princeton University

Fellow APS, AAAS

Member National Academy of Sciences

Salvatore Torquato

Professor of Chemistry and the Princeton Center for Theoretical Science,

Materials Institute and Applied & Computational Mathematics

Princeton University

2009 APS David Alder Lectureship Award in the Field of Material Physics

Fellow APS
________________________

Perhaps seeing these learned names including a Nobel Prize Winner willing to pubically associate themselves with the above statement may open a few eyes that believed Big Al when he said there was consensus.
Of course Big Al has a Nobe Prize also...

I respect those who say "We want to know what we can do to ameliorate the situation if this global warming stuff is true. " Fine...study it and figure stuff out. But when it goes from studying something to spending TRILLIONS and taxing us to get them... (Waxman-Markey)... I object. The science is simply not there....the models don't work... and there has been no warming in the last 10 years...so now they call it climate change.

Dr. Stuart Jordan, science policy advisor to the CFI Office of Public Policy and retired emeritus senior staff scientist at the NASA Goddard Space Flight Center:

"As a result of our assessment, [Sen. James] Inhofe and other lawmakers using this report to block proposed legislation to address the harmful effects of climate change must face an inconvenient truth: while there are indeed some well respected scientists on the list, the vast majority are neither climate scientists, nor have they published in fields that bear directly on climate science."