What It Takes to Be in the 1% Around the World

[Boatyarddog]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

The left is ALL about government control. And redistribution.

The leftist ideal only works if you cede your freedoms to their control.

Capitalism is more of a self-regulating free-for-all.

Public ownership and private ownership are contrasting things. Government control contrasts with freedom.

Sure, in reality our society is a blend of these things. Markets do better with regulation and some level of governance. Society works better if the government is there to manage infrastructure and to help out the destitute.

There are plenty of examples of varying degrees of socialism and capitalism.

But it's not just about who benefits. It's a basic philosophical difference in where the control is, and how much one values personal freedoms vs government control. The extremes of either is problematic.

The problems with right leaning is that it's ALL about them personally.
And, if ANY one or entity questions that it's wrong to them.
And an attack on their personal freedoms.

They do not ask others opinions because while hearing them, they don't want to listen to anything that would benefit ALL, if they have to comprise.

We live in a country, America, where it's okay to dream but we should respect and consider what we do and HOW it Affects others.

Because we that live in this Country have Rights as all other Americans.
There are those right now that wish to divide us from this reality.

They Wil NOT succeed at this.
It's NOT An American Value.

Watch and learn the Values of the Nationalists in America, it's ALL about them!
No, DisneyWorld.
No, History if it relates to sufferage, of people of Color?
No, CRT, even though this keeps in mind the destruction, and abuse that has plagued our land, in past times.
Don't say GAY?
As if this is ANYONEs business but their own.

These are real events, and need to be kept as examples of what We as Americans pledge an Oath,
Protection from Tyrants like these.

LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL
Freedom isn't just for The Right, it's For All that live in America.
Boatyarddog

[sailorboy1]

I used to be in the top 15%

Now I live on a boat and make just enough to meet the poverty level.

What I am sure of from being on both is that the rich get tired of others trying to get their money and the poor never feel they got enough of it.

[Mike OReilly]

A lot of one-dimensional caricatures being bandied about here. I recommend everyone read that book I mentioned.

[sailorboy1]

Now days I only read books I am sure support my positions. Otherwise why would I waste money on a book that is going to fix the world, if it could it would have.

[poiu]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

The left is NOT all about state control and compulsion. It's acknowledging that life is about more than a no-rules scrabble for individual acquisition, and that there are collective rights as well as individual rights.

Most people want the same freedoms, built on top of a functional safety net and dependable infrastructure, and where a collective approach is used where it makes the most sense - eg poverty, mass transit, healthcare, education.

Question: If universal single-payer healthcare delivers a better overall level of healthcare at a lower cost, leading to a healthier and more mobile workforce and higher productivity... is universal single-payer healthcare a capitalist or socialist move? Discuss.

PS: Ayn Rand lived on Social Security.

Oh yes its is. Socialism and left politics is all about state control and compulsion.


Just tell me how you are going to have state provided mass transit, health and education if you don't compel people to pay for it in taxes and take what services you give them, them like it or not?

The left's policies always lead to reduced freedom and choice.
'you will take this train, this doctor, this treatment, this hospital. You will take it the way we give it and be happy with it. You will have your kids educated the way we choose'. How is this anything but compulsion and reduced freedom?

Alternatives to the state provided options, depending on the socialist system are either banned, or so expensive the working man cannot pay for them. They have to be, after all, a big chunk of his money that otherwise would go to paying for these things is taken in the high taxes that always accompany the leftist society. Reduced choice again, state control, effective compulsion.

When I hear people extolling the collective approach I an only think of the communists. The collective, the community, the commune is all that matters. The individual and his interests matter little. If any system has failed the test of time, this is it and is at the heart of leftist politics.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

A lot of one-dimensional caricatures being bandied about here. I recommend everyone read that book I mentioned.

What's funny is how many people fall into the very traps they warn others about.

[Tetepare]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

What's funny is how many people fall into the very traps they warn others about.

What’s even more funny is that in a discussion BOTH sides are often right. Because both parties select their data and observations. I love watching arguments like that since nobody is going anywhere when they only like their own data. Given that there is correlation and causation, if one can ignore the causation, which most at best can’t analytically determine and at worst ignore, it’s a blast. Throw in some trolls and we gots a party!

[garyfdl]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Now days I only read books I am sure support my positions. Otherwise why would I waste money on a book that is going to fix the world, if it could it would have.

I'm pretty sure (hope?) you're being facetious... but your comment made me think of this:

If you're afraid that reading a book might change someone's thinking...

You're not afraid of books. You're afraid of thinking!"

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by garyfdl

I'm pretty sure (hope?) you're being facetious... but your comment made me think of this:

If you're afraid that reading a book might change someone's thinking...

You're not afraid of books. You're afraid of thinking!"

No the question is whether the book changed anything other than allowing the reader to believe they were right.

Otherwise, why didn't the world changing book change anything?

[garyfdl]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

why didn't the world changing book change anything?

I think "world changing" is a bit overly broad, but just because a book didn't change things for one person doesn't mean it didn't for someone else.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Boatyarddog

LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL
Freedom isn't just for The Right, it's For All that live in America.
Boatyarddog

Agreed.

I think the real problem is that folks are so anxious to see the Mickey Mouse characterization of the other political party, and believe everyone in that party is represented by the (often exaggerated) worst examples.

Florida man, for example, takes a real beating. And we hear of some strange things. But I know a lot of people in Florida, and most are not represented by Florida man. (OK, some are...)

I also know a lot of conservatives, and for the most part, they don't resemble the caricatures that the media paints of the them in general. When a newspaper interviews a conservative, is it a pretty normal person who just doesn't want higher taxes and socialized medicine? No. It's someone who is pretty extreme.

I'm sure that's true of liberals as well, but they don't seem to get quite the same media coverage.

So, there you have it. People criticizing caricatures, and choosing to believe the worst about others.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by poiu

Oh yes its is. Socialism and left politics is all about state control and compulsion.

Just tell me how you are going to have state provided mass transit, health and education if you don't compel people to pay for it in taxes and take what services you give them, them like it or not?

The left's policies always lead to reduced freedom and choice.
'you will take this train, this doctor, this treatment, this hospital. You will take it the way we give it and be happy with it. You will have your kids educated the way we choose'. How is this anything but compulsion and reduced freedom?

Alternatives to the state provided options, depending on the socialist system are either banned, or so expensive the working man cannot pay for them. They have to be, after all, a big chunk of his money that otherwise would go to paying for these things is taken in the high taxes that always accompany the leftist society. Reduced choice again, state control, effective compulsion.

When I hear people extolling the collective approach I an only think of the communists. The collective, the community, the commune is all that matters. The individual and his interests matter little. If any system has failed the test of time, this is it and is at the heart of leftist politics.

I see we've veered off into religious creed as opposed to an evidence-based discussion of how different economic systems actually perform, alone or together, and I promised myself that I would not intentionally mess with anyone's religious beliefs. So I respectfully decline to rebut this.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

What's funny is how many people fall into the very traps they warn others about.

Yes, that's why it's clear YOU really need to read this book.

Add: and SB it seems.

[poiu]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

I see we've veered off into religious creed as opposed to an evidence-based discussion of how different economic systems actually perform, alone or together, and I promised myself that I would not intentionally mess with anyone's religious beliefs. So I respectfully decline to rebut this.

I demonstrated objectively in my rationale that your claim was wrong that leftism wasn’t about state control and compulsion. There was not a shred of ‘religious’ belief in my post.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by poiu

I demonstrated objectively in my rationale that your claim was wrong that leftism wasn’t about state control and compulsion. There was not a shred of ‘religious’ belief in my post.

Well...

Just tell me how you are going to have state provided mass transit, health and education if you don't compel people to pay for it in taxes and take what services you give them, them like it or not?

You pay regardless. It's been clearly demonstrated that things like transit or public education are most effectively and efficiently done as a public undertaking. And you can opt out of either! Buy a car, send your progeny to a private school. Home-school them.

The left's policies always lead to reduced freedom and choice.
'you will take this train, this doctor, this treatment, this hospital. You will take it the way we give it and be happy with it. You will have your kids educated the way we choose'. How is this anything but compulsion and reduced freedom?

Pure mythology. I'm in a universal single-payer system; I chose my doctor and he's easy to get appointments with; he doesn't have to spend 20% of his time fighting with insurers. I can get second opinions from other doctors. The standard of care is excellent. And it's available to every citizen.

A train is a train. Don't like it? Take the bus. Or drive. Remember private schools?

Alternatives to the state provided options, depending on the socialist system are either banned, or so expensive the working man cannot pay for them. They have to be, after all, a big chunk of his money that otherwise would go to paying for these things is taken in the high taxes that always accompany the leftist society. Reduced choice again, state control, effective compulsion.

You are divorced from reality. How is the weather in Galt's Gulch? The US has public education and gov't funded public transit. Is the US a socialist state?

When I hear people extolling the collective approach I an only think of the communists. The collective, the community, the commune is all that matters. The individual and his interests matter little. If any system has failed the test of time, this is it and is at the heart of leftist politics.

... and this is what I meant earlier. Breathe the word socialist, and some people's brains just freeze up. "All men are created equal"... "one (wo)man, one vote" - these must really get under your skin, no? How dare some unemployed nobody have the same power at the ballot-box as us wealth-creators, amirite?