World population is growing 20 million people every 3 months

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Please tell us how you'd plan on getting the juice to the big city where it's needed and used the most?

... at night.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by UAEguy

Ah StuM, glad to have you jump in on my bailiwick!

In the analysis of building a profitable solar farm, the cost of the land is the least important. It is possible to buy 250 acres of prime solar land in Arizona for less than $1M. On that 250 acres, it is possible to install 1 million square meters of OPV for $75M which includes grid tie and full balance of plant with solar-trac-rac. With this facility, at $0.12/kwh, revenues can exceed $25M/yr.

I'm sure it be just as easy and efficient in Scotland in winter.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by UAEguy

I agree with you completely...if it didn't come out in my statement, this is what I intended. But it is the 1st world living that has caused this situation.

No, it applies to 1st, 2nd & coming to 3rd world.

Unskilled labor is simply not worth much and it's becoming worth less every day:
- USA is onshoring a lot of manufacturing...not because our workers are better but because automation makes it more efficient. 30-40yrs ago, when unskilled labor did most of the work producing a car, it made sense to ship the parts overseas, pay someone $1/hr and then ship it back. In the modern world, labor makes up a much smaller percentage of most products, so shipping is starting to outweigh labor.
- Cashiers are a dying breed because automated systems can do it faster, cheaper and more accurately.
- A single tractor can work as much land in a day as a small village can do. Even at $1/hr, the tractor is still cheaper.

3rd world countries will be the last to see this as the cheap labor make the economics favor manual labor for a bit longer but even there changes will follow.

I've spent a little time in the middleeast and I think I know where your confusion is coming from. They import dirt cheap labor and use them hard. That pushes off the financial tipping point for a lot of the things we are discussing. It's an odd outlier but change is coming there also. With the drop in oil prices and local govts trying to reign in costs, you are seeing a lot of push back against immigration (even though the locals would never consider doing most of the jobs in question)

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Obviously, you aren't aware of the requirements and complexities of a home or business solar array. It's a requirement that the system be interconnected to the grid, the surplus electrical power generated during the day or during the high production months is carried forward as a credit to be used during the low production months and at night... when most solar arrays produce zero. At the end of the year, there should be a zero balance. Sort of like the meter goes forwards... the meter goes backwards. That's the way it works... no batteries.... no other choice if one plans on obtaining a building permit to install an array. So yes, the two arrays which total 15kw supply all the electrical power us and our tenants use over the entire year along with energy conservation measures which include extensive use of LED lighting.

Without the two arrays, our annual electrical bill would be somewhere between $5,000-$6,000 dollars or closer to $10,000 without the LED lighting. With the arrays it is $0, making us the very definition of energy independent.

On the boat, we use a 450amp battery bank of Trojans.

Grid tie mean you are not independent. It means the govt subsidizes your non-sunny day power use.

-As an individual, taking advantage of govt programs makes financial sense.
-As a country, grid tie systems make little sense.

[UAEguy]

Originally Posted by StuM

I'm sure it be just as easy and efficient in Scotland in winter.

Well Heck StuM, Scots know everything (just ask one) and they will surely have a solution.

[UAEguy]

Originally Posted by StuM

... at night.

Funny you should ask StuM, multi-use solar farm reservoirs are on the drawing boards enabling efficient energy storage, evaporation protection and cheap surface area for PV.

Two reservoirs at different altitudes work to provide extremely efficient and reliable energy storage.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Grid tie mean you are not independent. It means the govt subsidizes your non-sunny day power use.

-As an individual, taking advantage of govt programs makes financial sense.
-As a country, grid tie systems make little sense.

You must have missed the part about our solar panel producing excess electricity for other people to use during the day and sunny summer months which feeds into the system, then using the excess at night, cloudy days and during the longer, darker winter months.

Or, are you just looking to find fault in something you don't understand?

Nothing is free here to the people like us who purchase our own solar array system. The only savings provided by the government is that the money spent on purchasing the system does not get taxed at the federal level on income tax. Just like here in Massachusetts, some retail items are not subject to a 6% sales tax like clothing or food. You, me and most people still need to earn the money to buy these items, but they aren't taxed with a consumption or sales tax. Solar is no different. Remember... we are taxed on the money as we earn it as income by the Federal government, then we are given back the tax money if the income was spent on solar.

Now do you understand? It's really not that difficult.

[valhalla360]

Land is not the big issue with solar. Plenty of roof tops left and we could always cover our roads and sidewalks even in urban areas.

The problem is storage and for all the billions being spent on new battery technology, the costs are simply too high if you want solar to be more than a bit player.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

You must have missed the part about our solar panel producing excess electricity for other people to use during the day and sunny summer months which feeds into the system, then using the excess at night, cloudy days and during the longer, darker winter months.

Or, are you just looking to find fault in something you don't understand?

Nothing is free here to the people like us who purchase our own solar array system. The only savings provided by the government is that the money spent on purchasing the system does not get taxed at the federal level on income tax. Just like here in Massachusetts, some retail items are not subject to a 6% sales tax like clothing or food. You, me and most people still need to earn the money to buy these items, but they aren't taxed with a consumption or sales tax. Solar is no different. Remember... we are taxed on the money as we earn it as income by the Federal government, then we are given back the tax money if the income was spent on solar.

Now do you understand? It's really not that difficult.

I understand exactly how grid tie works.

You produce excess when it's not needed, then get free refund of that power during the peaks when your system isn't producing and it costs the most to produce.

You aren't covering the cost of transmission and backup power plants for those times when your solar system isn't producing.

What solar proponents love to forget about is the actual energy that goes into producing electricity is typically only around 1/3 of the cost per KWH (depends a bit on the source). When you get full retail credit for a KWH sent back to the grid, it's costing the utility. Of course that cost gets passed onto your neighbors as their bill must cover the grid and backup power plants that you still use on a regular basis.

So no, you aren't energy independent.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Land is not the big issue with solar. Plenty of roof tops left and we could always cover our roads and sidewalks even in urban areas.

The problem is storage and for all the billions being spent on new battery technology, the costs are simply too high if you want solar to be more than a bit player.

Batteries are not required. It's Simple... the electric meter runs backward during the day when we're producing excess, then forward during the night when it's dark. Backward day, forward night. Think in simple terms like an old fashion speedometer. Then repeat....

Backward during the day.... forward at night. You'll get it

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Batteries are not required. It's Simple... the electric meter runs backward during the day when we're producing excess, then forward during the night when it's dark. Backward day, forward night. Think in simple terms like an old fashion speedometer. Then repeat....

Backward during the day.... forward at night. You'll get it

Yes, I already said, I understand how the scam works.

Where do you think the power comes from when the meter is running forward? Magical unicorn farts?

You are basically using a large pile of coal subsidized by your neighbors as your battery.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I understand exactly how grid tie works.

You produce excess when it's not needed, then get free refund of that power during the peaks when your system isn't producing and it costs the most to produce.

You appear to be a slow learner, so I'll splane myself better.

Your statement above is totally false and bassackwards.

More power is needed during the day when business are open, their lights are on and air conditioners are running full blast. When people are awake during the day at home, appliances are on, TVs are on and so is the air conditioner. Things have changed since 100 years ago out on the farm... maybe you missed it.

Peak time is now daytime.

During the night, the lights and appliances pretty much go off in most households after 9:00 or 10:00pm and nearly all businesses are dark.

So less... much less electricity is used at night. We produce an excess amount when it's needed most.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

You appear to be a slow learner, so I'll splane myself better.

Your statement above is totally false and bassackwards.

More power is needed during the day when business are open, their lights are on and air conditioners are running full blast. When people are awake during the day at home, appliances are on, TVs are on and so is the air conditioner. Things have changed since 100 years ago out on the farm... maybe you missed it.

During the night, the lights and appliances pretty much go off in most households after 9:00 or 10:00pm and nearly all businesses are dark.

So less... much less electricity is used at night. We produce an excess amount when it's needed most.

Peak power consumption is typically around 5-6pm. Feel free to google it.

Power plants & grid need to be built to handle that time period. Unless you have magic solar panels, they are putting out nothing at that time, so the utility has to maintain a system to power your place during that peak and the bulk of a KWH is in the grid and power plants not the actual energy.

Is that simple enough "splaining" for you?

[UAEguy]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

What solar proponents love to forget about is the actual energy that goes into producing electricity is typically only around 1/3 of the cost per KWH (depends a bit on the source).

You'd be surprised that the guys working at the utilities who know this stuff quite well are investing in solar more than any other generation technology.

Don't get me wrong, I love nuclear power...but economics are driving this bus now.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Peak power consumption is typically around 5-6pm. Feel free to google it.

Power plants & grid need to be built to handle that time period. Unless you have magic solar panels, they are putting out nothing at that time, so the utility has to maintain a system to power your place during that peak and the bulk of a KWH is in the grid and power plants not the actual energy.

Is that simple enough "splaining" for you?

Looks like you're going to need a picture.

Notice how the curved part of the graph goes way down at night and then way up during the day?

Repeat after me... Demand goes up day, down night. Up day, down night.

Again... up day, down night. You'll get it.