Much Advice Needed !

[tsanni]

I'm so glad to have found this site. I am at the absolute beginning of my life on the water. My father retired in his mid forties and learned to sail. He also went back to school to study marine electronics. Some 30+ years of living aboard later he has become masterful at his art, has sailed from Mexico to Hawaii, lived aboard all over the world and inspired me to embark on a path in his footsteps, albeit with far smaller aspirations.

My first goal is to find the right starter boat. I am looking at a 1971 22' Santana WD SCHOCK with a 12 volt Minn Kota electric motor with solar or battery power. This is all a foreign language to me. Anybody out there familiar with this boat? Any constructive feedback positive or negative would be greatly appreciated. Thank you

[JPA Cate]

tsanni,

What does your Dad say? Seriously, you have a resource right there, who might really love to give you a leg up.

However, if it is important to you to do it without his help, this elder thinks the Santana 22s were fun boats.

The question of what is the best starter boat is answered by many opinions. Without knowing how much sailing you've done, it's a little hard, but you've got a lot of river sailing at your location. So, what do you think of a trailer sailer? You could take it to inland lakes and some inland waterways, as well as sail the Columbia R.

If that doesn't suit and you want a small keel boat you can keep somewhere around Portland, why don't you look at sailboatdata.com and see what's available in your area in your price/size range?

Speaking in very general terms, a small, light, responsive boat is what will teach you best. If you keep the investments small, you can trade up after you've learned what the boat has to teach you.

You'll notice "x" number of brand "y" boats for sale. Do not buy at the bottom of that unless you want to spend a lot of time fixing up. Try and find the nicest one in the area, it will be easiest to pass on when you're finished, if you take good care of it.

All for now,

Ann

[tsanni]

Thank you, Ann, for such a prompt response. Unfortunately my father is not within communication at this time, I am trying to reach him. I have zero experience other than as a passenger. I'm hoping to spend a great deal of time on board getting to know whatever boat I ultimately decide upon, if not living 100% aboard.

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[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, tsanni.

[Celestialsailor]

Welcome to the forum. personally I would pass on a boat who's only propulsion is a Minn Kota. If you are new, you will make lots of mistakes and a proper outboard would be a much better asset. I'm sure in Portland, there are a lot of other options. Be patient and ask questions here...good luck.

[tsanni]

Thanks for your reply. Just so I understand, why would you steer away from a Minn Kota motor? It appeals to me because I wouldn't be dumping fuel into the water, but other than that I don't know anything. I'm trying to learn. Aside from the motor, what about the boat itself?

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[thomm225]

Originally Posted by tsanni

Thanks for your reply. Just so I understand, why would you steer away from a Minn Kota motor? It appeals to me because I wouldn't be dumping fuel into the water, but other than that I don't know anything. I'm trying to learn. Aside from the motor, what about the boat itself?

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Looks like a good starter boat, and a fun boat to sail with a good Bal/Disp ratio. They definitely built enough of them. The iron ballast isn't the best but you probably aren't paying a lot for it.

Santana 22

SANTANA 22 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

You could also get a boat with a clean running 4 stroke outboard if you are worried about fuel in the water

[tsanni]

It seems like a good deal, but I don't really have a reference point. Boat is $1200, motor $500. Does that seem in line?

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[thomm225]

Originally Posted by tsanni

It seems like a good deal, but I don't really have a reference point. Boat is $1200, motor $500. Does that seem in line?

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Here's a website for the boat:

Santana 22 Home

[SailingFan]

Originally Posted by tsanni

It seems like a good deal, but I don't really have a reference point. Boat is $1200, motor $500. Does that seem in line?

I can only offer a little bit on this, as I was in a similar place (minus access to the father with such great skills) about this time last year. I have since come to realize many things, however.

First, if the vessel you find is in great shape, that is a winning strike.

If the vessel is fully inspectable and trailerable (and the PO will part with the trailer itself as part of the deal) that is another strike for the win column.

If you have a legit title to the vessel you purchase, another positive point.

If the rigging is in shape and mounted, another positive note is played.

If the sails are there, and are NEW or in very good shape, another benefit that is directly relative to the age and condition versus the cost of new sails is realized.

If the hull is not a crazed gelcoat shell with flakes knocked off the laminate here and there below or above the waterline and the keel is in good shape, and the keel bolt change to stainless has been made already, you have another good thing going.

If you can go on a test sail, and EXTENSIVE ONE, with the current owner who can assist you in learning the ropes for that afternoon, so to speak, another good thing. You may even get a friend out of the deal, something of real value, but that cannot increase the cost of the vessel beyond it's price to someone else, if that makes sense.

If the engine is gas powered and there is room someplace for a fuel cell on the deck and it can be safely securely fastened in place without interacting with the rigging or the sails, another win.

If the cabin top, hatches, ports, mast, and chain plate mounts don't leak into the interior, a good thing.

The rudder post should not be bent!

The wiring should not be chopped off.

The bilge pump should work and a demonstration IS called for, regardless of what the seller says if he/she wants to sell you this or any other vessel. It takes only a few seconds to check this.

The lights should be in proper places and should all work.

The electrical connections within the interior must function properly and be easily located at a fused and switched distribution location.

Any lack of fulfillment of the above is grounds for a reduction in fair market value of a boat. There is also a certain school of thought that considers lack of any wiring or rigging whatever makes a boat more useful for them because they wanted to radically change these systems, but I doubt most people, and even more specifically, whether anyone new to this would want a boat that is in a severely rough state.

It may float, but if it is a stripped shell, or even a partially damaged one in some way, the 22 foot sailboat is easily a pain to take possession of, let alone pay for. Consider the cost of rewiring, new sails, lighting, ventilation and hatch/port repair or replacements, engine issues, halyards, mast tabernacle or step problems, rudder issues, or other things that are detectable with even minor inspection both in and out of the water can far exceed the $1500 you have been considering.

Likewise, the engine issue is a big deal. The problem with electric motors is that they require electricity to function. You do not state whether there is means to generate electricity on board, so to reliably count on a trolling motor, you will need to add a deep cycle battery (or two), a means of charging them, and a place to mount them must be considered. Those batteries are often over $100 each, even for the Walmart versions. Solar panels are a solution, but allow for that in your estimates.

An anchor is required, along with rode for it, be that chain or an anchor line that has the flexibility required for the purpose. Fortunately, Walmart carries that line with an eye thimble in it, and a couple anchor options for you if they are not already on the boat. Walmart carries fenders too. It pays to have a few, at least four. You can get them for danged near or even free too if you keep an eye out at a marina or at a marina repair yard (where they are often tossed into a rubbish pile and are free for asking or perhaps a six-pack, though the fenders may be ugly or stained - it beats scarring your hull, does it not?)

The $1200 boat and $500 trolling motor can easily add up to far more than you expect if these other issues are a problem. The HP of the outboard is a key feature in its price. A trolling motor for that price may not be a good deal at all, especially as it is used and therefore outside warranty to a second (or later) owner. Also, can you get parts for that trolling motor locally, and how do you get the thing serviced if something goes wrong?

A new non-furling plain Dacron main and jib sail for my 27 foot Hunter (1978) cost about $700 and $850 dollars US respectively. And that is the CHEAPEST costs I could find to date for these sails. I am forced to stick with the worn ones that came with the boat currently, and hope I can keep them patched until a better situation presents itself. On the plus side, you may be able to locate sails on eBay or Craig's List for your boat size. I see them now and then, but not as often for mine. Get your measurements from your current mast and rigging setup to select your sails, then you can see what those costs will be.

For cruising, the sail selection is likely along the lines of my costs (probably close to $550 and $650 respectively (best case) for new cruising sails, plus shipping if any is required), race sails can be far more (but you don't need them I should think, at this time). However, I have seen folks claim they used last season's racing sails for cruising. No idea how that works out, though, averaged over lots of folks who do that.

I do know that cruising sails are often used for several years, so are pretty durable, if not the latest tech available. At least they tend to be cheaper, new for new.

The cushions in the boat have no value relative to the cost of the boat, really, because there are lots of ways to replace them, but few ways to repair them after all this time. They are a nice bonus in other words, but don't let them dictate the value of the vessel, because frankly, the people I have spoken with in the industry could care less (like carpet installation in a selling home, the new occupants are going to want something different anyway, so the sellers may just throw something in there to have something in there, mine don't even fit!).

You can make most other things work, and use ice coolers for refrigeration at first, and learn a ton with that vessel size with less hassle than a larger boat brings, so if all looks great and the price seems reasonable considering condition and options installed (only those that you actually want and think you will actually have use for), you may have a winner.

I have run into most of these things on my own boat, by the way, and the rest on the power boat I used to have. The things on my current boat are pestering me greatly right now.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by tsanni

Thanks for your reply. Just so I understand, why would you steer away from a Minn Kota motor? It appeals to me because I wouldn't be dumping fuel into the water, but other than that I don't know anything. I'm trying to learn. Aside from the motor, what about the boat itself?

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A 4 stroke motor will not dump fuel in the water. that is something the 2 strokes are accused of. A six horse long shaft 4 stroke is what you need, IMHO. The Santana's are a good boat and sail well. A Catalina 22 is also good and IMHO a better interior layout.
P.S. Stay away from MacGregor and Clipper marine.

[tsanni]

Thank you so much for your comprehensive outline of details to be aware of and get solid info on. So much of it would never occur to me since I just don't know what to ask or look for.

The boat appears to be in very good condition to my inexperienced eye. It is titled and registered with current tags. The mounted sails appear to be in good condition and there are backup sails never used. As for the engine, it only has 80 hours on it, comes with 2 - 6v batteries with solar panels included. I've insider's investing in a generator as an alternate power source should I be in a spot without electrical hookup. There are quite a few esoteric things I will have to round up, heat, cooking appliances, refrigeration, upgraded cushions, etc which I can acquire as I go along. Part of my decision to do this is to find something to occupy my time and mind with something new, creative and constructive that I enjoy. Also, the sense of community found in the boating world is very appealing and sorely lacking in modern society.

As for the many other points you have provided me with an excellent checklist to come back with on my 2nd visit.

Thank you so much for your thoughtful reply.

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[tsanni]

Thanks for your continuing input, I now have info on recommended alternatives to explore.

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