4 or 5 Knots to know?

[StuM]

Originally Posted by thomm225

For the crew, (and Skipper as well ) maybe

figure 8
Bowline
Cleat
half hitch

That's all that's needed..........

Not quite.

A few weeks ago, bent a tow line onto a short line already rigged to the towing eye of a disabled trailer boat.

Yesterday, had to join two shorter lines to make a stern line that could reach a secure point ashore.

Zeppelin Bend both times of course!

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by StuM

The RYA OXO is another example of entrenched thinking being wrong today (just like the clove hitch and sheet bend ). The problem is with the first O passing the incoming line beside the first leg.

It's fine if you are tying up to a rock wall or fixed wharf that is well above water level so that lead into the cleat comes from below.

But if the lead into the cleat is downward, as is generally the case these days with modern floating docks, that completed turn around the first leg will frequently get jammed under the incoming line - making it very difficult/impossible to release under load.

Edit: had a touch of Deja Vu, so went looking for the last time this came up.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post1914458

According to this link:

https://books.google.com.pg/books?id...0hitch&f=false

the RYA don't teach a full 360° initial turn, so it's no longer OXO.

FWIW, attached is an example of the OXO, showing the problematic first 360° "O"

Several things that I see as problematic with this OXO method. First and foremost, as pointed out a few times, the full O in the beginning invites a jam. Had it happen before and don't do that any more.

The rest looks like a slightly organized rat's nest and I think no more secure than a C X with the last part of the X a half hitch to lock the line on the cleat. Also, leaves no room at all for a second line on the cleat which is occasionally useful, especially at the dinghy dock.

I don't recall a cleat done the CX way ever totally jamming, although I haven't (yet) hung a boat from the dock lines. Maybe, if I think hard, once or twice one got tight enough I had to work it loose.

[CaptTom]

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

Makng a line fast to a cleat, go around the base of the cleat and under the far horn first, then the second. Then figure eights. One. Two. A half turn around the base, essentially. When you continue around the base and meet the standing part again, you risk jamming the line, depending on its size relative to the cleat size. Then use as many figure eights as you think you need. A final half hitch on one horn is only called for when the line wll not come under heavy strain, and the line might otherwise be whipped off the cleat by the wind. For a dock cleat, let me tell you, with a large change of water level that line can be under strain approaching 1/4 the actual weight of the boat. When pulled tight from underneath, that half hitch will lock up tighter than Jack Benny's coin purse. I have had to cut a few mooring lines "fixed" by good samaritans who thought a half hitch was required. If a storm tide might cover the pier and wash an unsecured line off a cleat, just add a few loose round turns around the works, after ensuring that there are enough figure eight turns. With a storm tide, you DON'T want your dock lines jammed so that they cannot be loosened in a hurry!

^^^ You nailed it. I can't say it any better.

[Time2Go]

Originally Posted by StuM

The RYA OXO is another example of entrenched thinking being wrong today (just like the clove hitch and sheet bend ). The problem is with the first O passing the incoming line beside the first leg.

It's fine if you are tying up to a rock wall or fixed wharf that is well above water level so that lead into the cleat comes from below.

But if the lead into the cleat is downward, as is generally the case these days with modern floating docks, that completed turn around the first leg will frequently get jammed under the incoming line - making it very difficult/impossible to release under load.

Edit: had a touch of Deja Vu, so went looking for the last time this came up.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post1914458

According to this link:

https://books.google.com.pg/books?id...0hitch&f=false

the RYA don't teach a full 360° initial turn, so it's no longer OXO.

FWIW, attached is an example of the OXO, showing the problematic first 360° "O"

What is shown in pic 19.10 is the exact way I was informed by my
RYA instructor to tie onto a cleat
He referred to it as an OXO
The line does indeed make an 360 (O) before starting the 8 (x)
If it were to go around the horn again before started the 8 it would be a 540 and thus not an "O"
I think we are in agreement here
Just a bit out on the nomenclature
Cheers
Neil

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Time2Go

What is shown in pic 19.10 is the exact way I was informed by my
RYA instructor to tie onto a cleat
He referred to it as an OXO
The line does indeed make an 360 (O) before starting the 8 (x)
If it were to go around the horn again before started the 8 it would be a 540 and thus not an "O"
I think we are in agreement here
Just a bit out on the nomenclature
Cheers
Neil

Only if the "lead in" is in line with the cleat. If the lead in is at any angle from the line of the cleat, it's clearly not a 360 (O) loop. Imagine that same illustration with the lead in at 45° or greater.

[Juho]

Double sheet bend is essential when you have two ropes with different diameter (or the other one is slippery). I use double sheet bend regularly with courtesy flags whose cords tend to be thin.

[David M]

I use the cleat hitch, bowline and two-half hitches most often.

Teach them those and they can get by probably 90% of the time.

[Juho]

One of the first things to learn is how to coil a rope. Figure 8 style has some advantages over the simple O style. Captains preferences determine how the coil should be finished (tied together).

[Juho]

In cleats I tend to make first many enough X's to make the knot fully secure (depends on how slippery the rope is), and only then add a half hitch or two. This way there will be no problems opening the half hitches.

[Juho]

In practice beginners need to learn to connect a carabiner hook to its own rope (when there is no appropriate size ring available to connect the carabiner hook directly).

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Juho

Double sheet bend is essential when you have two ropes with different diameter (or the other one is slippery). I use double sheet bend regularly with courtesy flags whose cords tend to be thin.

Another knot I use for joining two ropes of different sizes when one is large and stiff is the carrick bend.

[Juho]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Another knot I use for joining two ropes of different sizes when one is large and stiff is the carrick bend.

That's interesting. I tried it and it seems to work quite well for ropes with different diameters.

Another unrelated trick I do with carrick bend is that I like to make it as in ABOK #1559, i.e. I use the same side ends instead of the diagonal ends of the knot. I think the knot is prettier and slimmer that way.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by StuM

Forget about the sheet bend, clove hitch and a lot of the other traditional knots used in hemp/manila lines. They slip under cyclic loads with modern rope materials.

Here's the list I teach on Learn To Sail and Search & Rescue Crew courses.

The 5 essentials:
1. Bowline.
2. Zeppelin Bend
3. Figure 8
4. Round Turn & 2 Half Hitches
5. Cleat Hitch (no "full turn". It can jam a mooring line under load)

This list would be my pick too , but I would add the Rolling Hitch to essentials, if only for fenders and to fix a riding turn on a winch. Limiting the number of knots to 4-5 is difficult, as you need a stopper, a bend, a loop and a few hitches. Unlike the best bend, there is no one best hitch to cover all tasks.

I agree wholeheartedly that the Zeppelin (or one of its variations) rules supreme when it comes to tying two lines together. Not that I am in any way biased :

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ad-128727.html

Originally Posted by Juho

Double sheet bend is essential when you have two ropes with different diameter (or the other one is slippery). I use double sheet bend regularly with courtesy flags whose cords tend to be thin.

The Double Sheet Bend is reasonable if load is constant. It is, however, poor with cyclical load, particularly in water. Also, in older stiffer line it is difficult to dress and if there is any substantial time between tying the bend and load being applied, it can loosen up enough that it simply slips under load. Disconcertingly, reports that it can occasionally slip completely (for no apparent reason) keep cropping up.

Originally Posted by skipmac

Another knot I use for joining two ropes of different sizes when one is large and stiff is the carrick bend.

I think the Carrick is a reasonable choice, but it is slow to dress (and can slip substantially undressed) and is not widely taught. It is also very easy to get wrong unless you practise it frequently.

The best method is a simple variation of the Zeppelin Bend . Just give the thinner tail another tuck in the final stage. No name has been decided on for this knot, even though I have found it discussed way back in 2010. Asymmetric Zeppelin is about the most common term used. Apparently the extra tuck works well even with vastly different diameters, even though it produces a very ugly looking knot then.

This is how the extra tuck at the end looks. If you zoom in on the second photo you can see how the double turn of the thinner line ends up:

[Catmandu]

if you decide to teach a sheet bend at least teach the double sheet bend as they don't tend to fall apart as easily when unloaded.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Juho

Double sheet bend is essential when you have two ropes with different diameter (or the other one is slippery). I use double sheet bend regularly with courtesy flags whose cords tend to be thin.

No it's not. The Zeppelin Bend does the same thing - only better.