4 or 5 Knots to know?

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Juho

That's interesting. I tried it and it seems to work quite well for ropes with different diameters.

Another unrelated trick I do with carrick bend is that I like to make it as in ABOK #1559, i.e. I use the same side ends instead of the diagonal ends of the knot. I think the knot is prettier and slimmer that way.

But less secure.

See ABOK #1428.
"The drawing illustrated the CARRICK BEND with both ends on the same side of the knot which is less secure than the same knot formation with the ends diagonally opposite each other" (emphasis added)

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Juho

In cleats I tend to make first many enough X's to make the knot fully secure (depends on how slippery the rope is), and only then add a half hitch or two. This way there will be no problems opening the half hitches.

You never need, nor should you use, more than one half hitch .

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by StuM

You never need, nor should you use, more than one half hitch .

Except after a round turn

[Juho]

Originally Posted by StuM

No it's not. The Zeppelin Bend does the same thing - only better.

Ok, now tested, not too bad. But you can't use Zeppelin for everything, like making loops - I think.

[Juho]

Originally Posted by StuM

But less secure.

See ABOK #1428.
"The drawing illustrated the CARRICK BEND with both ends on the same side of the knot which is less secure than the same knot formation with the ends diagonally opposite each other" (emphasis added)

That's just hearsay from Mr. Ashley's mouth . I think he often refers to flogging type of action when he talks about the "security" of the knots. Carrick bend is an "airy knot" and therefore always somewhat vulnerable to flogging. I don't see any major difference between the diagonal and one sided version.

If one wants to make a knot that is secure against flogging, maybe one should tie a knot that is less "airy". For example a doubled reef knot might do the job (I may make some pictures to explain what that is).

[Juho]

Originally Posted by StuM

You never need, nor should you use, more than one half hitch .

Maybe to protect against the shoes of the beginners that might interfere with the knots in the cleat

[Juho]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

The Double Sheet Bend is reasonable if load is constant. It is, however, poor with cyclical load, particularly in water. Also, in older stiffer line it is difficult to dress and if there is any substantial time between tying the bend and load being applied, it can loosen up enough that it simply slips under load. Disconcertingly, reports that it can occasionally slip completely (for no apparent reason) keep cropping up.

In Finnish double sheetbend is called "the flag knot". That refers to a typical constant tension use. That means a lot of flogging, but under tension, and probably very few fallen flags.

If you zoom in on the second photo you can see how the double turn of the thinner line ends up

The doubling looks in principle very similar to the doubling in the double sheet bend.

[Juho]

Here are some pictures of a doubled reef knot as promised. Figure 1 shows the much despised reef knot . In figure 2 the the two ends have been bent downwards. In figure 3 one of the ends has been bent around the standing end and then placed next to the other standing end (through a loop). In figure 4 exactly the same operations have been done to the other end. In figure 5 the knot has been tightened.

This knot differs from carrick bend(s) and many other knots in that it is not "airy". It is more like a solid rock than can be flogged around without any fear of any loose ends opening up.

The point is that if you want a bend that is safe against flogging and other random movements and pushes, the bend should probably be a solid knot with "no air". This bend can be untied quite easily (although it takes some time). I guess there are also many other knots that have similar properties. This one is quite simple and easy to learn if you know the reef knot, and are not too much afraid of its bad reputation . Mr. Ashley would agree that this is a secure knot in his terms .

[jeepbluetj]

Teach em how to coil a line without adding twist to it (like winding around the elbow and hand do... sheesh)

Cleat hitch - as alluded to earlier, at least half the boats in my marina think that a proper cleat hitch is to just keep making figure 8's around the cleat until there's no line left.

Maybe then a bowline.

Oh, and the Zeppelin is by far the best bend out there. Thanks SWL for showing me the light on that one.

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by jeepbluetj

Cleat hitch - as alluded to earlier, at least half the boats in my marina think that a proper cleat hitch is to just keep making figure 8's around the cleat until there's no line left.

At my marina, hooligans or drunks would sometimes untie your docklines...you know...for a laugh. Also, the staff did not like lines on the dock...claimed them to be a trip hazard. So one solution was to tie the line in 8's around the bollards till there was no line left. The drunks were too lazy to undo all those 8's, and the staff was happy there was no line on the dock to trip over. The other solution was to have a loop (doubled of course) on the shore bollard (or cleat) and have the bitter end on the boat. But I liked to have "dock lines" that stayed on the dock, and just looped over my cleats when I came in...sure made docking so much easier and faster. Anyway, just wanted to air my excuse for all those 8's.

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by Juho

In cleats I tend to make first many enough X's to make the knot fully secure (depends on how slippery the rope is), and only then add a half hitch or two. This way there will be no problems opening the half hitches.

You should never add a half hitch. Unless the wind might whip a halyard off its cleat on the mast. No half hitch. No. No. No. Don't do that. Ever. Except if the wind might blow a line adrift. You might think you have enough figure 8s on the cleat, but then you get an unusually high or low tide and the whole weight of the boat is on a mooring line, as an example. The half hitch will pull tight from underneath, and jam hopelessly, and you will not be able to release it to slack the line, probably resulting in a cleat torn out from your boat, or if you are very lucky, only the line broken. Or your boat is pulled underwater. You must, and also everyone else must, be able to quickly slack the line without cutting it. For a dock line, half hitches serve no useful purpose whatsoever. None. Zero. They don't help a thing. If you want more security, simply fill the cleat with figure 8s, and then take several loose round turns around the whole works. The line will even surge off a little by itself, when needed. Nothing can jam. The line can be slacked or cast off altogether, instantly.

I have had to cut a lot of expensive mooring lines because some well meaning but clueless individual saw my boat tied up with no half hitches on the dock cleats, and "fixed" it. Or they were good neighbors, and slacked my lines in my absence, or took up the slack, during or after a storm tide. Then to be "thorough" they add the dreaded half hitches. I come home to find those deeply buried/jammed half hitches and end up cutting my lines. It is infuriating. People, LISTEN!!!!!!! DO NOT HALF HITCH A DOCK LINE ON A CLEAT!!!!! It is so very WRONG. Don't Do It. Period. BAD, BAD BAD!!!!!!

[Juho]

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

You should never add a half hitch. Unless the wind might whip a halyard off its cleat on the mast. No half hitch. No. No. No. Don't do that. Ever. Except if the wind might blow a line adrift. You might think you have enough figure 8s on the cleat, but then you get an unusually high or low tide and the whole weight of the boat is on a mooring line, as an example. The half hitch will pull tight from underneath, and jam hopelessly, and you will not be able to release it to slack the line, probably resulting in a cleat torn out from your boat, or if you are very lucky, only the line broken. Or your boat is pulled underwater. You must, and also everyone else must, be able to quickly slack the line without cutting it. For a dock line, half hitches serve no useful purpose whatsoever. None. Zero. They don't help a thing. If you want more security, simply fill the cleat with figure 8s, and then take several loose round turns around the whole works. The line will even surge off a little by itself, when needed. Nothing can jam. The line can be slacked or cast off altogether, instantly.

I have had to cut a lot of expensive mooring lines because some well meaning but clueless individual saw my boat tied up with no half hitches on the dock cleats, and "fixed" it. Or they were good neighbors, and slacked my lines in my absence, or took up the slack, during or after a storm tide. Then to be "thorough" they add the dreaded half hitches. I come home to find those deeply buried/jammed half hitches and end up cutting my lines. It is infuriating. People, LISTEN!!!!!!! DO NOT HALF HITCH A DOCK LINE ON A CLEAT!!!!! It is so very WRONG. Don't Do It. Period. BAD, BAD BAD!!!!!!

Ok, I haven't tried the tide tricks since I mostly sail at the Baltic Sea where tides are hardly noticeable. Maybe if I'll increase the number of figure eights as you propose and make just a small half hitch at the end. No problems expected if the figure eights would hold also without any additional ties.

(Or maybe I'm showing a bad example to others who would not build the necessary figure eights anyway before making the half hitch .)

[micheck]

If you don't want your hitch to come loose, the Buntline Hitch is the knot for you. The Anchor or Fisherman's Bend is often used in place of the Round Turn and two Half Hitches.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by micheck

If you don't want your hitch to come loose, the Buntline Hitch is the knot for you. The Anchor or Fisherman's Bend is often used in place of the Round Turn and two Half Hitches.

That's if you never want it to come loose.

The problem with the Buntline Hitch is that it has a much higher tendency to jam than a round turn and two half hitches. Same with the Anchor / Fisherman's. Both excellent knots if you want a permanent attachment, but not for temporary attachments such as securing fenders.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Juho

Ok, now tested, not too bad. But you can't use Zeppelin for everything, like making loops - I think.

Think again
Zeppelin Loop (Rosendahl Loop)