4 or 5 Knots to know?

[buzzstar]

Originally Posted by StuM

Think again
Zeppelin Loop (Rosendahl Loop)

Really wish I could make this come out correctly so the intended kudos were apparent, but just take this with a grain of salt: You really are an expert -knot.

[Juho]

Originally Posted by StuM

Think again
Zeppelin Loop (Rosendahl Loop)

Ok, I should have guessed that variant. In must conclude that Zeppelin can not be used for connecting fenders (a Zeppelin loop is not practical enough).

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by Juho

Ok, I haven't tried the tide tricks since I mostly sail at the Baltic Sea where tides are hardly noticeable. Maybe if I'll increase the number of figure eights as you propose and make just a small half hitch at the end. No problems expected if the figure eights would hold also without any additional ties.

(Or maybe I'm showing a bad example to others who would not build the necessary figure eights anyway before making the half hitch .)

Ah. Okay, so no tides. But why do you want a half hitch? What does it accomplish? It serves no purpose. The line is perfectly well secured by the figure eights. Yet, in the face of an unexpected extremely heavy strain, the line can surge a few inches instead of rip out a deck cleat or bitts. Or jam the half hitch which won't be there unless you deliberately and illogically add one.

[AiniA]

One knot I have found quite useful is the buntline hitch. It is a very secure knot if you are worried about the knot coming undone. In fact, if there is a lot of load on the knot it can be very difficult to get untied. I discovered it when looking for a way to attach the steering lines on my Monitor vane to the rudder, the line is fairly small diameter and had a tendency to come undone with the constant loading and unloading of a vane steerer. Only way to get it off is to cut it but it is not something that you really want to get off.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by AiniA

One knot I have found quite useful is the buntline hitch. It is a very secure knot if you are worried about the knot coming undone. In fact, if there is a lot of load on the knot it can be very difficult to get untied. I discovered it when looking for a way to attach the steering lines on my Monitor vane to the rudder, the line is fairly small diameter and had a tendency to come undone with the constant loading and unloading of a vane steerer. Only way to get it off is to cut it but it is not something that you really want to get off.

Refer Post #74

[Juho]

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

Ah. Okay, so no tides. But why do you want a half hitch? What does it accomplish? It serves no purpose. The line is perfectly well secured by the figure eights. Yet, in the face of an unexpected extremely heavy strain, the line can surge a few inches instead of rip out a deck cleat or bitts. Or jam the half hitch which won't be there unless you deliberately and illogically add one.

I guess the reasons behind using a half hitch are quite similar both in the halyard case and in the dock line case. Something might move the rope and weaken the knot. Probably nothing will happen, but people want to be sure that nothing happens. The last figure eights might be very loose (because there is no tension left), and therefore one might seek means to secure those loose figure eights.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Juho

I guess the reasons behind using a half hitch are quite similar both in the halyard case and in the dock line case. Something might move the rope and weaken the knot. Probably nothing will happen, but people want to be sure that nothing happens. The last figure eights might be very loose (because there is no tension left), and therefore one might seek means to secure those loose figure eights.

Juho, I know it is not the correct practice, but I too am guilty of occasionally adding a half hitch (or even two ) to a cleat hitch.

I will stop doing this when there is a risk of high load seizing the hitch. Instead, a loose round turn around the base should minimise the risk of any accidental loosening.

SWL

[Juho]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Juho, I know it is not the correct practice, but I too am guilty of occasionally adding a half hitch (or even two ) to a cleat hitch.

I will stop doing this when there is a risk of high load seizing the hitch. Instead, a loose round turn around the base should minimise the risk of any accidental loosening.

SWL

I think there is a risk of jamming, but it is controllable by means of adding some extra figure eights. There is also the risk of the boat betting untied. So one has to balance these two risks and find the appropriate tying practices for each situation. One can use also other means than a half hitch to secure the knot, e.g. few extra eights and loops around the cleat, but half hitches are quite easy to do and normally easy and quick to open. My approach is thus to balance the risks and find well working practical procedures.

When I have had problems with cleat knots, the reason has usually been someone helping a bit and tightening the dock line by adding one or two loops around the cleat (using the line between the boat and the cleat). That certainly causes problems. I don't recall any serious problem cases with the half hitches.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

Ah. Okay, so no tides. But why do you want a half hitch? What does it accomplish? It serves no purpose. The line is perfectly well secured by the figure eights. Yet, in the face of an unexpected extremely heavy strain, the line can surge a few inches instead of rip out a deck cleat or bitts. Or jam the half hitch which won't be there unless you deliberately and illogically add one.

Under some conditions, it adds elegance, symmetry and beauty. Other times, it just looks right .

The issue with the cleat hitch is that it can be used under many different conditions. The size of the cleat, the size of the line, the expected (and unexpected) loads all contribute to what is most suitable.

I agree that the half hitch is undesirable in many of the potential applications but not in all.

I use vertically mounted horn cleats for my external halyards. Their size is matched to the diameter of the halyard. The line comes off the winch, under the lower horn, clockwise up to and under the upper horn, down and across the cleat back to the lower horn, under it and anticlockwise back to the upper horn, under it and then is secured with a half hitch. Very quick, neat, tidy and never had any jamming over decades.

The headsail sheets are similar, the tails off the winches are dealt with the same way. Only takes a second to undo and ease the sheet on the winch. I would never pile on figures of eight in this case.

Rope work should look "proper" in some cases.

Compare these two photos and tell me which is more elegant.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Rope work should look "proper" in some cases.

Compare these two photos and tell me which is more elegant.

I am all for elegant .
In many cases the most beautiful ropework is also the strongest.

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We have just received a package from SVB chandlery in Germany. Enclosed with a card showing how to tie 8 knots they consider vital, four of which were hitches. This is the list:
Reef knot
Bowline
Figure 8 stopper
Cleat hitch
Round turn with two half hitches
Slipped overhand hitch
Clove hitch
Sheet bend

Given this thread, I had a chuckle seeing what they showed was the correct way to tie a cleat hitch:

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by Juho

I guess the reasons behind using a half hitch are quite similar both in the halyard case and in the dock line case. Something might move the rope and weaken the knot. Probably nothing will happen, but people want to be sure that nothing happens. The last figure eights might be very loose (because there is no tension left), and therefore one might seek means to secure those loose figure eights.

Those figure eights won't simply undo themselves. However, you can throw a couple of loose round turns around the entire cleat if desired. I coil the bitter end around the cleat simply to prevent it being kicked off the pier and collecting algae in the water. But it's your boat and your lines.

[jkindredpdx]

Late to the party, as usual...
American Bowline (Bobby Schenk)
Figure 8
Cleat Hitch
Taught Line Hitch
Sheet Bend
Clove Hitch
Double Half Hitch
Prusik...

[buzzstar]

There are several ways to tie a "cleat hitch" as various segments of this thread show. Has anyone had actual difficulty with a version they use or do not use? I have not with mine, despite many years and some variety of conditions, but I am not 100% sure this is not more luck than having learned the correct method. I wish I could describe the version I use in a few words, but I cannot, although it is simple and very rote. BTW, I do try to keep things neat after the lines are all tied (both mooring and halyard. Thanks.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by jkindredpdx

Late to the party, as usual...
American Bowline (Bobby Schenk)
Figure 8
Cleat Hitch
Taught Taut Line Hitch
Sheet Bend
Clove Hitch
Double Half Hitch
Prusik...

There, fixed it for ya.

[SkiprJohn]

Originally Posted by jbinbi

lets get this back on track. they do know how to cleat a rope. what other knots?

Back on my first Destroyer in '63 I was taught that the proper term for what you called a rope is line. Rope in the Navy is wire.

The most basic knots. Cleat hitch, Bowline, Round turn with two half hitches, clove hitch with a half hitch finish, rolling hitch, sheet bend. Maybe with synthetics there might be changes as Stu mentioned.