A broach to remember; family fun in spring wind

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Paul L

There's a lot more to this than narrowing it down to one feature, a wide stern. Look at some of the IOR design era boats with very tucked in narrow sterns. Many of these are almost unmanageable downwind. Crews describe the steering in high winds as just plain squirrelly.

If a wide stern is taken to an extreme then it tends to have two, outboard rudders, making it track very well.

Be careful when perpetuating this myth. An IOR boat, with a huge spinnaker and strong winds, would have been vastly overpowered, and its hull shape limited its ability to surf or plane downwind. In this situation they were a handful to steer. Imagine 10 knots of boatspeed and 20 knots of apparent wind. The broaches were epic.

However, this is a function more of the depth of the canoe body which severely limited the ultimate boat speed. The IOR boats are far from the fastest boats for their length, and poor handling when over powered was the result of that deep hull shape. Plus there is no clean, straight, run aft. Not a great shape for fast running.

But remember the OP and this thread are talking about using these shapes in cruising. Take that 1.5 oz kite down in 25knots and everything gets docile again. In 33 years including a lot of full on racing, and 55,000 miles we have NEVER had difficulty managing our IOR boat.

[Paul L]

Wingsail
No need to be careful. My point was that the statement that wide sterns are more likely to roundup is just false. There are many factors and the example I gave of IOR designs shows this. It is just silly to say one design feature is what makes a boat a good sailing, offshore boat. Design is complex and absolutely full of tradeoffs. No design is perfect.

[jsanton]

My hunter 356 has been in conditions like that for days and never broached. She’s wider. It might be interesting to look at sail plans. I think hunter locates the mast further forward than catalina does. That could make a big difference.
I dont get it when you say to drop the main sheet. Thats the last thing I would do. Never let the boom rest on the shrouds. Especially in high wind conditions.

Another relevant thought. PredictWind now has wind speeds based on local land formations. Not perfect yet, but it helps predicts where wind funnelling occurs. Using their forecast you could prepare in advance. I think thats what you are after- some way to keep from being blindsided.

I’d like to encourage you on viewing your keelboat like a big dinghy. When I figured that out the fun level went way up! A big heavy dinghy...

[JDWS]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Oh, memories of the south end of Lummi; I love the majesty of that high and mostly untouched island but the gusts at the southern tip, just as you make a left hand turn, can be quite surprising.

Your broach was not caused by the size of the waves or the length of the rudder. It was the fact that the mainsail overpowered the rudder and it stalled. Once flow is lost, with that deep spade, it will lose it's grip entirely. The width of the stern also has the affect of jacking the rudder out of the water a bit. Turning down as soon as you feel the wind's increase usually will prevent the broach, and you have plenty of room to bear away in that spot, however anticipation is the key. A 2nd reef, done ahead of time would help, but then you have to sail with reduced power when there are no gusts. Your choice.

Yes, exactly what happened. And your memories are dead right- once past Viti Rocks it’s miles of sea room. Love that island!

Thx for the comments-

[JDWS]

Originally Posted by docsnuz

We were coming across from Vancouver through Porlier Pass. The wind was brisk to say the least. We were in a Catalina 32 Calliope. Winds built as we travelled in company with a larger boat - 40'. As winds built and heel increased, we didn't reef but continued to harden the main. Until we were dipping the toerail on the leeward side and standing on the side of the cockpit! We still had steerage, mind you. Skipper finally gave the command to ease the main and the boat mostly righted and continued on, basically under genoa alone.



The larger boat, had opted to reef and so kept the main sheeted hard in. We had the exciting view of their broach and rounding up. Meeting up with their crew in the pub later that day, we heard it was a truly sphincter-clenching moment. Consensus was that relieving the pressure on the main would be our first choice if we ever found ourselves in that situation again.



I thought it was interesting that you were on a similar boat in the same area and had the same experience. I wouldn't suggest it was anything wrong with the boat or that there was anything wrong with your rudder. Just too much force behind the mast/keel (pivot point) spun you around like a top.



That experience really made an impression on us. We all went out and got t-shirts made with Ease the Main in various styles. It became our crew shirt going forward!

Great shirt!

With one reef in, I was sheeted fairly hard ( too hard, clearly). I’ve made the same passage a couple times since, in various conditions a few combinations of an eased main, or running under Genoa.

[JDWS]

Originally Posted by jsanton

My hunter 356 has been in conditions like that for days and never broached. She’s wider. It might be interesting to look at sail plans. I think hunter locates the mast further forward than catalina does. That could make a big difference.
I dont get it when you say to drop the main sheet. Thats the last thing I would do. Never let the boom rest on the shrouds. Especially in high wind conditions.

Another relevant thought. PredictWind now has wind speeds based on local land formations. Not perfect yet, but it helps predicts where wind funnelling occurs. Using their forecast you could prepare in advance. I think thats what you are after- some way to keep from being blindsided.

I’d like to encourage you on viewing your keelboat like a big dinghy. When I figured that out the fun level went way up! A big heavy dinghy...

A big heavy dinghy that (usually) rights itself, absolutely! Of course, you had to make it about hunter vs Catalina

And agree, I took the comment as ease the main, not drop it. I like my shrouds standing.