Always use a snubber or your boat could end up like...

[lestersails]

Can I ask another question about this? I was pretty shocked to see the captain on board the grounded* vessel, listing at nearly 45 degrees, assisting with the salvage in his bare feet. That seemed unwise (to put it mildly - following the prior admonitions against ad hominem attacks). Looked to me like a person who just doesn't understand a good deal of basic safety issues.

*The title of the video said 'sink' - but that vessel did not sink, right?

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by lestersails

Here here. For every charter I have been on and US sailing course I have taken, no pulling the boat to the anchor and no leaving the anchor on the windlass. They were 100% unambiguous.
Right up there with no peeing into the wind if you ask me...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQrTGE4wwwA

[Norman_E]

Something fishy about this. I have not read every post here so my aplogies in advance if anyone else has said this. The commentary says that the windlass clutch let all of the chain run out and that the rope attaching the end of the chain to the boat broke and the entire chain was dropped, but the video shows the boat grounded with chain still on the windlass!

[Bullshooter]

Originally Posted by Norman_E

Something fishy about this. I have not read every post here so my aplogies in advance if anyone else has said this. The commentary says that the windlass clutch let all of the chain run out and that the rope attaching the end of the chain to the boat broke and the entire chain was dropped, but the video shows the boat grounded with chain still on the windlass!

Not really. Read my last post, #71 - when they came up to check on the damage the chain was not there, (at 4:17) only a line on the starboard side of the bow. Later in the video a chain was visible on the bow roller, maybe another anchor was placed.

[sdj]

Why do windlasses even have a clutch? Seems strange to me..

[himnher]

Well I see what people mean about the slow pace.

It's an interesting explanation; As the windlass clutch slipped and so more chain was paid out, so the weight on the windlass increases, leading to it running away and dumping everything. Really? I thought the weight of chain on the windlass would be related to the depth as you'd 'hope' most of the scope is flat on the seabed and it matters little whether you have 50m or 500m on the seabed. Consequently the weight the windlass is supporting is based on the depth of water and not the length of scope out.

Passing ferries should cause the rise and fall in the scope and of course a good blow or tidal stream will result in more scope being lifted from the bottom, but this 'detail' excepted, the weight on the windlass is 'reasonably fixed' based on depth, give or take a bit.

Then the best part is that once the windlass clutch gave way, the bitter end simply parted ... suggesting it was 'less than adequate'. And going back to the weight of chain being based on the depth, it sounds as if the bitter end was woefully inadequate and would have been liable to give up at any time any weight came on it. Maybe rotted in the chain locker?

A very sad end to the boat though. The 'mashing' of the keel, skeg and hull were sad to see, although I'm not sure the efforts of the recovery team (other than snapping the mast) would have done that much more that wasn't done before. However, it might have been smarter not to try and topple her from her masthead and instead tow her out stern-first given the way the keel was wedge in the rocks, but a sad story. I know they were trying to raise the keel, but if it's wedged, trying to topple to boat to reduce her draft is only going to trip the keel more ...

[UFGator]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I didn't watch the video because if they say "very very few people actually use a snubber" then they are idiots and liars who people shouldn't listen to. Sounds more like Idiot with Boat Meets UTube

I have to tell you I have been watching this forum to see it if is something I would like to be a part of, but every time I read through a thread I am amazed that the negativity and BS I have to read. I don't think I want to be part of this.

This person never said few people use snubbers. He said in the Med it was very unusual to see someone using a snubber. I don't think that makes him and idiot or a liar. Maybe that's his experience.

Maybe the idiot is the person that attacks a thread that someone is just trying to put up there to help other people. I watched the video and found the entire thing to be helpful and informative. It actually convinced me to get a snubber.

[Raggedglory]

Originally Posted by dreuge

Mike, I'm a bit shocked that you thought my posting was a ploy at increasing the number of video views. Experience is earned, and we all make and learn from mistakes. But there is value in learning about the mistakes of others, especially when the mistakes are very costly.

Now I may not be an avid contributor on CF, but just because one reads more posts than writes, does not make them a pretender. When I had a smaller race/cruiser I was very active on SailNet, since refitting my Landfall 38, I have learned a lot from CF and contributed some back. I do spend time writing up my projects on blogspot and contributing to the CnC mailing list. The later is a wonderful community with fewer folks making incorrect ASSumptions.

With all due respect, I too had the same thought as Mike.
Why? As uninformed as many of us relics are at being computer savvy it's hard to miss the immediate ad for your blog on my phone feed after reading the posting.
Now correct me if i'm wrong but more views, more ads, more sponsorship to the blogger...no? I know its algorythms but im guessing you know the way it works.
This may not have been your ulterior motive and I figure most of us would take your word for it. Your sanctomonious response is, to my sensibilities, over the top. Mike made a fair point in my opinion and if you do not recognise the validity of the perspective then you need some second thought on the matter.
You look young, im so glad to see young cruisers but im guessing your blog makes you more than familiar with the online world. I will give you the benefit of the doubt you should have given Mike the same coutesy in my opinion.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by sdj

Why do windlasses even have a clutch? Seems strange to me..

Serves several functions, like being able to declutch the windlass to drop the anchor or if a combination windlass being able to separate the Gypsy operation from the Capstan, it may be needed to manually operate some windlasses too.
But I believe it’s most important use is to protect the windlass, if you apply too much pressure instead of stripping out the gearbox, the clutch should slip.

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by UFGator

I have to tell you I have been watching this forum to see it if is something I would like to be a part of, but every time I read through a thread I am amazed that the negativity and BS I have to read. I don't think I want to be part of this.

This person never said few people use snubbers. He said in the Med it was very unusual to see someone using a snubber. I don't think that makes him and idiot or a liar. Maybe that's his experience.

He said exactly that. He said “for those of you who’ve said in the Med, you’ll notice that very very few people actually use a snubber” and he also said “it’s common practice to anchor on chain with no snubber”. He isn’t differentiating between belaying and the use of a snubber, so his first statement is either just a lie (because most people at least belay the chain properly even if they don’t use a snubber), or is idiotic (as he believes the alternative to a snubber is just to leave the chain on the windlass).

The second statement is both a lie and idiotic.

Much of the incensed response comes from the fact that a YouTube channel is begging for money, but offering dangerously bad (and untrue) information masquerading as the truth when attempting to explain their videos.

If you don’t want to be a part of that, it’s entirely up to you. Many of the posters on CF go out of their way to discuss and explain good seamanship and what that entails. Many of us read CF because of that exact reason. If it turned into a place that we had to be condescendingly nice to idiots and/or liars we wouldn’t get a lot of learning done, and I for one would be less likely to read it.

[gaucho]

I agree the main problem is that is a Youtube channel with extremely NEW people to the cruising lifestyle, giving out accident analysis and recommendations when they themselves know absolutely nothing about the subject matter. Instead of taking a humble approach, and researching the subject, they just decide to talk out of their arses as if they knew any better. That's the sad part.

[Idlegreg]

I wonder if there is a cultural difference.

There are lots of posters, who I suspect are US based, who insist that the lesson here is Always Use a Snubber, which I find odd given that I cannot remember the last time I used one. Here in the UK I don't see them that often although they are maybe more common than they used to be. I see Dockhead seems to agree they are not essential and I believe he is sometimes UK based.

I got to wondering why the difference between all those who say you should ALWAYS set one and those like me who only use a snubber if in an unusually unpleasant anchorage.

Is it an American thing - am I right that in the US it was more common to use a primarily rope rode? Maybe it appeals to those who grew up with that. I rather like that fact that I hear the chain grumbling on the bottom when the tide turns and I feel sure I would wake if there was anything like the kind of snubbing that would lead me to reach for a Snubber. I don' really want to damp away that chain noise and any additional complexity in setting or weighing anchor is to my mind just more work and more things to go wrong.

Or is it that I am a bit obsessional about choosing comfortable anchorages (and unlike those in the Video I have not so often been in the sort of place where there is no choice) ?
I generally look for good shelter where there is no chance of a heavy swell. Unless I must I would only use an open anchorage when the forecast was good. Maybe I am just a bit soft and I realise some of you sail in areas where there may not be this luxury but are all you Snubber users regularly sitting at anchor with the boat pitching up and down sufficiently to break a chain ?

Also maybe something to do with modern boats and electric windlasses. Our heavy 21 foot Gaffer did not have a windlass of any sort but it did have a big Sampson post.

Now on a 33 foot boat we do have a manual Windlass - it is rather oversized (SL 555) but one of the first things we did on buying this boat was to replace the big wooden cleat on the foredeck with 2 stronger Bronze cleats and a 4" Teak Sampson post. I used to use a Tugboat hitch but in recent years (at least in moderate weather) I have taken to putting a turn of chain around the Sampson post and then running the chain onto the windlass gypsy with clutch tightened and the pawl in a notch. I suppose if I was going ashore for some time I might just bother to put a Tug Boat hitch on the post.

Many have posted quotes from Windlass manuals but I don't think any of those suggested using a shock absorbing Snubber. What they did say is don't leave the load on the windlass but rather take it to a proper mooring bollard or equivalent strong point - I believe that is what I do.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by UFGator

This person never said few people use snubbers. He said in the Med it was very unusual to see someone using a snubber. I don't think that makes him and idiot or a liar. Maybe that's his experience.

Not everyone gets a blue ribbon for showing up. What Zephyr said is flat wrong. Not just in the Med but everywhere. That means Zephyr and presumably Sea Dogs is either oblivious or lying. Period. Dot.

What you are missing is that a lot of basically kind and helpful people are reacting based on personal knowledge to something really stupid being said. We know how people anchor in the Med and in the ROTW.

If you think someone objecting to a statement that the sky is green is "negative" then you are going to have trouble learning what you need to learn to go cruising or even sailing.

[Idlegreg]

The discussion about clutches leads me to think some of this is about Electric windlasses and a lack of a really strong mooring bollard on many boats. I suprised a customer of mine when I lowered his chain using the clutch rather than motoring it out with the down button, which seemed rather a slow method to me - as a manual windlass user of course I have to use the clutch to lower the chain (or let it out hand over hand) so it was my normal technique.

It had not occurred to me that on an electric windlass, set up to power the chain down, the clutch might not really be up to the job of lowering the anchor regularly so that is a nice lesson from the thread. Though I still suspect that if a clutch is strong enough to hold the chain when motoring the chain in then I can't see how it is not able to control the chain being lowered. I guess the problem comes either with its durability if that is done often or in the case of an emergency leading to the boat being brought up short with a sudden high load after the anchor sets.

Of course in an ideal World a nice separate brake would be lovely :-)

[Idlegreg]

[QUOTE=Auspicious;3000963]Not everyone gets a blue ribbon for showing up. What Zephyr said is flat wrong. Not just in the Med but everywhere. That means Zephyr and presumably Sea Dogs is either oblivious or lying. Period. Dot.

Isn't an excessively doctrinaire approach itself rather dangerous ?

I am certain from my experience that there are thousands of experienced sailors managing quite well 99% of the time without Snubbers of the shock absorbing type discussed here. I agree there are times that there is a need for a shock absorbing anchoring rig but for many of us those occasions are very rare and I have most trust in those experienced skippers who think for themselves and make reasoned decisions based on circumstance rather than those who have too many hard and fast rules.

I do think the sailors who lost the boat in the Video made a big mistake in not securing the chain to something solid on the boat - it was stupid to rely on the windlass clutch but that has little to do with a long rope snubber.