Always use a snubber or your boat could end up like...

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Sailing4Jesus

Shipmate,
Your fears of BREXIT are in no wise overstated. As a North American and A Navy Senior Chief Retired, I have many close friends from Great Britain. In my own opinion, I believe that Great Britain is cutting Her Own Throat. There are millions upon millions of others that have the same opinion. But with an idiot such as Johnson as The PM, who is head bent on leaving The EU no matter the consequences, that it will cost Britain's Common People decades of suffering has not once entered that Idiot's Mind, and the same goes for the Ugly Ex-PM MAY. Ask yourself, who will come to help Great Britain should WW-3 start? And you better bet you best mule that it is even at our doorstep now, just look at The Signs Of The Times. Two of my Great Grandfathers, Henley and Williamsson, were both British, and a third Howard Freeman was a Red Headed Scotsman who arrived at Ellis Island in 1800 dressed in his Kilt carrying his Bag-Pipes. So you see for me Great Britain is SPECIAL, and I dread what is to befall Her once She is out of the EU. Signed, Chauncey Freeman, Senior Chief, USN, Retired

Ahh, I love it when some ***** combines religion and politics while abusing the will of a foreign people, who by the way voted for brexit, albeit narrowly but a vote for nonetheless.

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

We all can have our own opinions about whether it’s the best policy, but didn’t “Britain’s common people” vote in favor of Brexit and shouldn’t that matter more than what you or I or Johnson or anyone else thinks? Or do you imagine that you know what’s best for those “common people” better than they do?

As to who will help out Great Britain when WW3 starts, probably the same folks who helped out the last 2 times, before the EU even existed. I’d also imagine that EU members would help out, though they have limited ability to do so compared with the US.

And maybe, since they’re now signatories to NATO, they might turn up on time next time...

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

And maybe, since they’re now signatories to NATO, they might turn up on time next time...

But wouldn't that preclude the profits to be made producing arms and munitions.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

As to who will help out Great Britain when WW3 starts, probably the same folks who helped out the last 2 times, before the EU even existed. I’d also imagine that EU members would help out, though they have limited ability to do so compared with the US.

If the past two conflicts are any indication there wouldn't BE much EU left to help anyone. Depending on instigators and alliances NATO could be shaken to its core. The major threats on the world stage are currently China, Russia, India/Pakistan, and non-state actors with North Korea and Iran as understudies. In any of those cases the UK is more likely to be called on for aid then standing in need.



I tried to think of a way to pivot back to snubbers or at least anchoring. Failed.



We have noted an apparent cultural disposition to consider using a snubber as an element of good seamanship on one side of the Atlantic and a disposition to use a snubber only when needed on the other. Why is there a difference? What happened? Seminal magazine article? Talk by a notable?

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

We have noted an apparent cultural disposition to consider using a snubber as an element of good seamanship on one side of the Atlantic and a disposition to use a snubber only when needed on the other. Why is there a difference? What happened? Seminal magazine article? Talk by a notable?

Maybe partly due to so many marinas in what were once nice anchorages, the busy areas where most of the boats are anyway. Weekend out ir 2 weeks in summer many boats will head for a marina for a meal out, much more likely for lots if a blow is forecast. All chain is the norm as well, lots of the time just no need for a snubber.

[Tillsbury]

I'd say that culturally, at least in the UK anchoring is just a lot rarer. There are millions of marinas and mooring piles, and lots of small fishing ports in places there aren't those. Anchoring is just not required in most places, and the tides make it tricky to find sheltered places it would be useful.

Perhaps as a result, anchoring is treated as more of a special case in the UK, which explains why we go in for balls and all the rest?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

. . . We have noted an apparent cultural disposition to consider using a snubber as an element of good seamanship on one side of the Atlantic and a disposition to use a snubber only when needed on the other. Why is there a difference? What happened? Seminal magazine article? Talk by a notable?

Well, using a snubber when needed IS, of course, an element of good seamanship. Surely no one disagrees about this? And best practice is surely to always rig a snubber when there is any material risk of weather beyond the capacity of the catenary of the amount of chain you have out, or if you will not be on board.

We talked about it here:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

. . . . Alain wrote about this:

"A striking characteristics of this relation is its high non-linearity: a given force variation causes much less drift at high pulling forces than at low ones. When the rode tightens, the pseudo-elasticity due to gravity vanishes, so the force necessary to move the boat back increases asymptotically."



From: Rode - Static Behavior

That's why we need snubbers.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2999355


And a whole discussion here some years ago on going snubberless:



http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ay-173677.html


Funny that year after year, it's often the very same people discussing the same stuff



A lot of people from different parts of the world reported not using snubbers at least sometimes.

Originally Posted by sy_gilana

. . . I don't. Never have, never will, never had a problem. I will continue snubberless as long as I am sailing because that's the way I learned it on ships, and thats the way I have been doing it for, oh, 6000+ nights on anchor.

Pacific NW

Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy

. . . while I don't also use [a snubber] in benign weather, the one thing a sailor knows is the difference between a lubberly forecast and the local reality, as seen in Kenomac's helpful video clip.

Canada

Originally Posted by roverhi

If the winds are strong enough to stretch a proper length of chain taut, you are in survival conditions. You better have a really strongly mounted chain stop on deck and not the windlass as a snubber. Several rope snubbers would be extremely nice to have in those conditions. In almost all other conditions a snubber isn't needed. The catenary of the chain acts to ameliorate jerking of the chain.. . .

Hawaii

Originally Posted by patprice

I seldom use a snubber. One reason is I like to hear what the chain is doing. IF the wind shifts, the chain can be heard doubling and rumbling over itself. A snubber inhibits this feadback.
Also, mostly I anchor in calm waters. No noise.

Australia

Originally Posted by Wind Shadow

Yes, if you have the room a long scope of chain you don't need a snubber. but for short scope in a tight anchorage it would be good. I've been at anchor with a hundred or more feet of chain and by the time the shock gets to the windless it's minimal. No snubber is needed as the chain takes the shock.

Caribbean

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Why would it be too late, connect the hook to the chain and let out enough chain so that now the lines and not the chain are tight.

But to be completely honest I have never had the chain snatch hard up, I've always attached the snubber before we got there.
It's not rocket science, wind picks up or you see the black wall of clouds coming, hook up the snubber. Like reefing?
But last weekend, with 0% percent chance of rain, and never had more than 5 kts of wind at the greatest, I didn't bother with the snubber. This weekend, we may get enough wind off of the Hurricane so that I will use it.

U.S.






And from the same thread, this excellent post may bring the more analytically minded of us, like me, back to earth:

Originally Posted by Hudson Force

Well, call me simple-minded, but this seems to be another thread where the presentation and analysis of data far exceeds the needs for simple function and application choices of a snubber.

Those away from the computer and out on their bow setting an anchor can make some fairly easy choices with the length and type of snubber with a little trial and error, learning by doing.

The presentation of the first posts in this thread promoted the idea that there are successful choices that can be made with the use or not the use of a snubber.

Account for the wind, fetch, depth, current, wave action, rode and choose by your observations of the natural world.

The analysis and research of data can be interesting, but nothing surpasses direct observation of your boat in the natural world.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

I'd say that culturally, at least in the UK anchoring is just a lot rarer. There are millions of marinas and mooring piles, and lots of small fishing ports in places there aren't those. Anchoring is just not required in most places, and the tides make it tricky to find sheltered places it would be useful.

Perhaps as a result, anchoring is treated as more of a special case in the UK, which explains why we go in for balls and all the rest?

It is true that in the UK there are many more and much more interesting harbours, than in the U.S., not just per mile of coastline but altogether. It's one reason (out of several) why cruising UK waters is much more interesting than U.S.


But I'm not sure if less anchoring goes on. A certain percentage cruise from marina to marina and the same is true in the U.S. In busy places like the Solent where there are harbours every couple of miles people often just don't anchor (but I anchor a lot in the Solent). But once you get further afield, in the West Country, or up in Scotland, or across the Channel in N. Brittany, I think most people are anchoring most of the time -- certainly I am.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

We all can have our own opinions about whether it’s the best policy, but didn’t “Britain’s common people” vote in favor of Brexit and shouldn’t that matter more than what you or I or Johnson or anyone else thinks? Or do you imagine that you know what’s best for those “common people” better than they do?

As to who will help out Great Britain when WW3 starts, probably the same folks who helped out the last 2 times, before the EU even existed. I’d also imagine that EU members would help out, though they have limited ability to do so compared with the US.

Yer, the "common people" no what's best for them, that's funny.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

If the past two conflicts are any indication there wouldn't BE much EU left to help anyone. Depending on instigators and alliances NATO could be shaken to its core. The major threats on the world stage are currently China, Russia, India/Pakistan, and non-state actors with North Korea and Iran as understudies. In any of those cases the UK is more likely to be called on for aid then standing in need.



I tried to think of a way to pivot back to snubbers or at least anchoring. Failed.



We have noted an apparent cultural disposition to consider using a snubber as an element of good seamanship on one side of the Atlantic and a disposition to use a snubber only when needed on the other. Why is there a difference? What happened? Seminal magazine article? Talk by a notable?

That's so American "the major threats are China and Russia ", of course the bad guys! How many US military bases around the world? How many foreign countries have the US rolled military into ?
Russia the bad guy is an old narrative, China economically is a real threat to US dominance but hey, economic super powers come and go, always have.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

...We have noted an apparent cultural disposition to consider using a snubber as an element of good seamanship on one side of the Atlantic and a disposition to use a snubber only when needed on the other. Why is there a difference? What happened? Seminal magazine article? Talk by a notable?

It was suggested earlier that cruising-sized vessels tend to carry heavier chain than us here in the New World, with 10 to 12mm being the norm. I was a bit surprised to hear this, but that was suggested as one possible reason.

conachair’s comments that there may be more marina usage in the UK is interesting. If true, it could explain some of the difference, but there’s a lot of marina hoppers here as well. Not sure...

I mentioned this earlier, but this harkens back to the apparent difference in the use of day shapes as well. It seems to be common practice in Europe, but rarely seen over here in North America.

[lestersails]

Arguments about science/engineering vs. experience and individual judgement are bogus. If you don't believe in and use the former you are a darn fool. If you apply a scientific/engineering result/principle without taking into account other variables and individual circumstances, you are a darn fool. Both are always necessary and important.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

. . . I mentioned this earlier, but this harkens back to the apparent difference in the use of day shapes as well. It seems to be common practice in Europe, but rarely seen over here in North America.

Indeed, and there is a striking difference in anchor ball usage. I put it down to a higher level of skill and education, since in the UK there is no enforcement (unlike the case in Germany and some other European countries, where there is vigorous enforcement of the anchor ball requirement).

[Idlegreg]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

I tried to think of a way to pivot back to snubbers or at least anchoring.


We have noted an apparent cultural disposition to consider using a snubber as an element of good seamanship on one side of the Atlantic and a disposition to use a snubber only when needed on the other. Why is there a difference? What happened? Seminal magazine article? Talk by a notable?

Good try and yes that Sums it up really.

Maybe Magazine articles or alternatively a Book / Author in the days when there were probably far fewer to choose from. I think it possible that the majority of UK sailors my age read Eric Hiscock's Voyaging Under Sail and Cruising Under Sail. For me those were the primary sources of information as I knew few people who sailed but was lucky enough to be loaned an 18' Gaff Cutter for a season. I suppose also the original Reads Almanac in the days when it told you how to cope with pretty much everything from Astro Nav to Childbirth all in one compact book that you bought anyway for the tide tables. I'm not with my books now but will try and remember to look up the anchoring chapter in Hiscock when I next get the chance.

Another possibility is the prevalent training Syllabus ? I am trying to remember if the RYA tought much about Snubbers - I don't remember it.

Also something I mentioned before (but maybe based on a misunderstanding of mine) years ago I got the idea that US sailors were much more likely to use a primarily rope rode. If that was the case then I can see that Snubbers might just feel right.


I have no idea how many US sailors anchor and how often but although we have Marina hoppers here I believe the majority are happy anchoring - it is pretty common.

I guess this forum is a self selecting group of those particularly interested in the details of seamanship - I think I spent much more time reading about such subjects when I was younger and before I ever worked in the marine industry - then I got set in my ways and any change in behaviour is slower. When I was learning the most I got the idea that Snubber use was a reserve tactic for when I would otherwise have a problem rather than as a day to day item - since then and until this thread nothing had made me think my practice was at all unusual.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Indeed, and there is a striking difference in anchor ball usage. I put it down to a higher level of skill and education, since in the UK there is no enforcement (unlike the case in Germany and some other European countries, where there is vigorous enforcement of the anchor ball requirement).

I'd argue against the generalization about snubber use in North America.

On the west coast of Mexico, which is heavily populated by cruising yachts from the USA, snubber use is virtually 100%. In fact two snubbers (bridle) can be observed on a vast majority of anchored boats.

On the other hand the use of day shapes is virtually unheard of.

It is not a lack of skill, or even education, since most cruisers now days have been exposed to some sort of boater's education. It's just that most people are followers; if you see everyone else doing it, you do it, needless or not, or if it is enforced by authorities, you do it.

If there are countries where such rules are heavily enforced, people will do it to avoid a fine.

In the US, (and especially in Mexico) authorities rarely enforce boating laws of any kind, especially ones for which there is not seen to be a obvious reason, such as a black ball to indicate a vessel is anchored. (please do not start telling he how important that rule is, most people just don't share that feeling and so, maybe being Americans, they just don't bother).

Are we scofflaws? Probably. Are we uneducated or unskilled? Not sure I agree with that one. Would I rather live in Germany? Doubtful.