Always use a snubber or your boat could end up like...

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

You can see the band brake on this image of the Maxwell VWC 3500.
It brakes the gypsy and I believe does not brake the capstan.
Attachment 201839

And how about this baby?

[a64pilot]

Due to the greater amount of chain wrap I prefer a vertical windlass, and on my smaller boat they take up less room on deck.
They take up the room below though of course but as my lockers are about 5 ft deep it’s not an issue.

That is the first horizontal I’ve seen with a vertical capstan too, interesting.
I don’t know if it’s unusual or not but the Maxwell vertical drives the Capstan always, the clutch sits on top and when disengaged the chain wheel is free to rotate. There is a lock pawl of course, but I don’t use mine.

[Simi 60]

How is a brake any different to a clutch?
If I cranked down hard on the clutch I reckon it'd never slip but I have never felt the need.

We have a HWC 3500 with the clutch set to slip before overload.
In 4 years of pulling our 70 tonne vessel up to the anchor we have had the clutch slip 3 or 4 times but never overloaded it enough to have a breaker trip.

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

How is a brake any different to a clutch?
.

The clutch loads the entire gear reduction train of the windlass while holding load, also if you use the clutch to freewheel the windlass, you’ll quickly be unable to tighten it enough to raise the anchor.

The brake allows the clutch to be opened and the descent speed of the chain controlled. The brake band has a replaceable friction lining material.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

The clutch loads the entire gear reduction train of the windlass while holding load,

True

also if you use the clutch to freewheel the windlass, you’ll quickly be unable to tighten it enough to raise the anchor.

Never had a problem
Pushes lever forward, chain runs out
Pulls lever back chain slows to a stop

The brake allows the clutch to be opened and the descent speed of the chain controlled.

As does our clutch, see above.

The brake band has a replaceable friction lining material.

So an extra thing to break down and find replacement for in remote locations.

Glad we have a clutch. (-;

[gaucho]

Originally Posted by cyan

One day, as I was habitually closing seacocks before a passage, my experienced friend told me he never does that and never had a problem. I thought well, sure, but I'm trusting just a solid valve and he's trusting flexible hose and clamps and... it only takes a couple of minutes.

What seacocks would you close for passage? I close the seacock for the head sink, to avoid backflow basically since it is in the bow and it does get some of that. Might close the head discharge for the same reason. But the rest of my seacocks, I kinda need them: engine, raw water for foot pump in galley and also refrigeration, cockpit drains (need those two seacocks), bilge pump discharge, engine raw water (I might close this for multiday passages, but never did in the end). I don't have anymore seacocks, what are you closing? Im curious.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

How is a brake any different to a clutch?
If I cranked down hard on the clutch I reckon it'd never slip but I have never felt the need.. . .

Whole world of difference. Clutch simply binds the gypsy to the windlass gearbox. The gears are taking all the load you are transferring, and I've seen ones broken this way.


Brake transfers the load to the structure of the boat.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Due to the greater amount of chain wrap I prefer a vertical windlass, and on my smaller boat they take up less room on deck.
They take up the room below though of course but as my lockers are about 5 ft deep it’s not an issue.

That is the first horizontal I’ve seen with a vertical capstan too, interesting.
I don’t know if it’s unusual or not but the Maxwell vertical drives the Capstan always, the clutch sits on top and when disengaged the chain wheel is free to rotate. There is a lock pawl of course, but I don’t use mine.

I prefer horizontal windlasses although they do take up room on the foredeck and can be a royal PITA with lines getting caught on them, so there are significant downsides. I have never found the lesser chain wrap to be a problem though.


A warping drum in the bow is a great thing to have with a bigger boat. I am all the time running lines down the decks to sheet winches.



I've gotten fairly decent service out of my vertical Lewmar Ocean 3 windlass, but I hate the lack of manual backup, lack of any brake, the poor clutch which means I really only ever power the anchor down. Also I've had to replace the motor THREE (!) times because it rusts -- seawater drips right on it and it is just painted mild steel. I need to devise some kind of shield for it; meanwhile I've given the latest new motor a good coat of Boeshield.


Hot tip -- the Lewmar motors are generic Mahle parts made in Slovakia, costing 1/4 the price if you buy direct.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

True



Never had a problem

Pushes lever forward, chain runs out

Pulls lever back chain slows to a stop





As does our clutch, see above.





So an extra thing to break down and find replacement for in remote locations.



Glad we have a clutch. (-;

You know of course that it’s not either or don’t you? That often times models with brakes also have a clutch and the brake is an additional add.
Brake is simply stronger in that it doesn’t rely on the gearbox as a load path.

Their use is exactly the same as an automobile, the clutch is used for motive force, and the brake is used as a stopping mechanism.
Yes you can slow a car using the clutch, and even sort of use it as a brake with the engine off, but a brake simply functions much better to stop the car and the clutch to connect the drive wheels to the engine.

Same function here.

I don’t know if you have ever been around older larger trucks where the parking brake was a band around a drum on the transmission output shaft of the transmission or not, but if you have, then a windlass brake is identical to that. Other than leaving it on and burning it up, there isn’t much to break.

With a clutch if you apply enough force, the windlass with either turn backwards, or break. I’d assume they are most often are worm gear driven like chain hoists are, and if so then that is the weak link, if they are worm gear driven, then there isn’t really any other gear box

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

You know of course that it’s not either or don’t you? That often times models with brakes also have a clutch and the brake is an additional add.
Brake is simply stronger in that it doesn’t rely on the gearbox as a load path.

Their use is exactly the same as an automobile, the clutch is used for motive force, and the brake is used as a stopping mechanism.
Yes you can slow a car using the clutch, and even sort of use it as a brake with the engine off, but a brake simply functions much better to stop the car and the clutch to connect the drive wheels to the engine.

Same function here.

I don’t know if you have ever been around older larger trucks where the parking brake was a band around a drum on the transmission output shaft of the transmission or not, but if you have, then a windlass brake is identical to that. Other than leaving it on and burning it up, there isn’t much to break.

With a clutch if you apply enough force, the windlass with either turn backwards, or break. I’d assume they are most often are worm gear driven like chain hoists are, and if so then that is the weak link, if they are worm gear driven, then there isn’t really any other gear box

All of this.


YES, if you've ever used one -- clutch and brake are separate controls. YES -- just like the clutch and brake in a car, NO -- one is not a substitute for the other.


I do not freefall my chain specifically because I do not have a brake, and I will not use the windlass clutch as if it were a brake because the gears are indeed worm gears and they BREAK if you abuse them.


Next boat will have one of those big Lofrans ones with a nice big band brake. That's a proper windlass, not a toy like what you and I have.

Originally Posted by Simi 60

. . . So an extra thing to break down and find replacement for in remote locations.. . .

You'd much prefer replacing consumable brake bands, to replacing the gears in your windlass, I assure you.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

.


I do not freefall my chain specifically because I do not have a brake, and I will not use the windlass clutch as if it were a brake because the gears are indeed worm gears and they BREAK if you abuse them.
.

But the clutch can slow, its not just freefall or stop, it has infinite control without loading the gearbox.

Next boat will have one of those big Lofrans ones with a nice big band brake. That's a proper windlass, not a toy like what you and I have

.
I would prefer bigger chain and none of those Lofrans seem to take larger than 14mm
Its also an extra $10 to $12,000 I'd rather not spend.

Muir Thor has same size motor as the 3500 but takes 16mm chain.
I'd look at getting a new chain wheel cast to suit the maxwell before buying a new windlass.

You'd much prefer replacing consumable brake bands, to replacing the gears in your windlass, I assure you

Again, set the clutch properly and the clutch will slip.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

But the clutch can slow, its not just freefall or stop, it has infinite control without loading the gearbox.

A good clutch should have infinite control, but they do load the gearbox, their job just like a cars is to connect the motor to the driving wheel, so they have to load the gearbox, where a brake dumps the load into the casting of the windlass, and of course from there to the hull.

For me it’s kind of mute as I power down and up. I see nothing to gain by “dropping” anchor. I believe that comes from the day when there was no power down, a windlass raised the anchor, it didn’t run backwards.
Now our little windlasses can run backwards

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

A good clutch should have infinite control, but they do load the gearbox, their job just like a cars is to connect the motor to the driving wheel, so they have to load the gearbox, where a brake dumps the load into the casting of the windlass, and of course from there to the hull.

For me it’s kind of mute as I power down and up. I see nothing to gain by “dropping” anchor. I believe that comes from the day when there was no power down, a windlass raised the anchor, it didn’t run backwards.
Now our little windlasses can run backwards

I do the same, but powering out 100 meters of chain in deep water is tedious. Also very poor for emergency anchoring.


Good free fall of the anchor is a very good thing to have, under control of a powerful brake. Could save your bacon in an emergency.



Remember for emergency anchoring you may need to bring the vessel up short from some speed. You will break your windlass trying to do that without a brake, whereupon the chain will run out and you're screwed. You will need to get the chain stopped so you can belay it, and that will be a tricky thing with the boat moving at some speed, and I'm not sure I would even try it without a decent brake.


Recreational boats are just not set up for this potentially lifesaving maneuver.


My plan for that is to use the kedge, and not the bower anchor, if I ever need to emergency anchor. My Fortress is always ready in the anchor locker, rigged and ready to go. I would throw it over manually. But the bower anchor with chain would be better.

[a64pilot]

Without a break, my chain stopper is how I stop a moving boat, and drag down on the anchor.
I looked long and hard at a VWC 3500 which can be had with a brake, but it’s min chain size is 3/8” and I wanted to carry 5/16”.
So I don’t have a brake, and haven’t needed one yet.
So far as free falling an anchor, with my chain stopper I wouldn’t do that, the tolerances are pretty tight, and I think it very likely that it would flip the lever and suddenly stop the chain, and I’d rather not have that sudden stoppage.
I’m sure I could ease it out with my clutch, but haven’t tried.I just leave the clutch tight except when I want to use the Capstan.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by gaucho

What seacocks would you close for passage? I close the seacock for the head sink, to avoid backflow basically since it is in the bow and it does get some of that. Might close the head discharge for the same reason. But the rest of my seacocks, I kinda need them: engine, raw water for foot pump in galley and also refrigeration, cockpit drains (need those two seacocks), bilge pump discharge, engine raw water (I might close this for multiday passages, but never did in the end). I don't have anymore seacocks, what are you closing? Im curious.

I have four, they stay open for a passage. The head sink has it's own valve on the drain, but the seacock is open for other sources to drain through.

Leaving the boat is when we close through hulls, all of them.

BTW, the cockpit drains are above the water line in the rudder bustle. We do not close them.