Anchor and rode: How rusty is too rusty?

[mako]

danfarrell since you're money-conscious, you could go with the old norm, which is one boat's length of chain then your nylon rode. So 30 feet of 5/16" chain shouldn't be too expensive, then put a bit of extra money into an excellent anchor that is at least one size larger. If you plan to do a tremendous amount of cruising and anchoring, then go up two sizes.

[Mike OReilly]

Hi Dan, I am a former Lake Superior sailor. Spent a decade plying the waters. Mostly northern and eastern shores, but I spent some time in the Apostles and travelling the west shore. I actually bought my current boat from La Pointe marina on Madeline Island. Mine too was a salt-water boat that had been brought up to the Big Lake.

Anyway, I’d be happy to share whatever I can about Superior sailing. It is a truly amazing cruising ground — I still miss it.

I'm hearing disdain for the cqrs. Riffing on that theme, I'm curious whether i should think of this as a high priority item.

It’s not disdain. They were fine anchors for their day. They’re still ok. It’s just that the newer designed ones are significantly better in most ways. You certainly can still use a CQR, but almost any of the new-gen anchors set better, hold better, and reset better. They also work in a wider range of bottoms.

The challenge for you will be to find a new-gen anchor that fits your bowsprit with modifications. I’m sure one of them will work.

Here in the apostles, the holding in the desirable anchorages is quite good. Further into the lake (where i hope to someday go) there's many places where i understand one can't anchor at all. Sand on the south shore, and shoal water far from shore. On the north and west side, rocks and too deep to drop a hook. Or so says the expert (locals will know the name Bonnie Dahl).

I know the book very well. I’ve even met Bonnie a couple of times (briefly) out on the water. If you study her book you’ll find hundreds of excellent anchorages scattered across the north and east shores. I much prefer those areas for cruising, but the Apostles are nice too. The west short (the Minnesota shore) is probably the roughest place for decent anchorages. They have a series of refuge harbours to make travel possible.

The windlass is newish. Am i correct in guessing the gypsey is typically interchangeable on these things? Never owned a windlass before.

Yes, you can usually get different gypsys depending on chain size. That looks like a Lofans windlass. Certainly possible to buy a new gypsy for that.

[jmorrison146]

Unless I could get a look at the center pin of the swivel, I would float test it.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Again, glad that it worked for you at that time. But advising a newbie that such risks are ok isn't good form IMO. He wants to know good anchoring practice, not what once worked for you on dodgy tackle.

Jim

Based on the picture provided, that anchor has light surface rust on it. That anchor has had little use as compared to mine so I feel confident giving him that advice. Also, my dodgy tackle has done quite well for the past 8 years in some pretty bad situations . (but I do have another backup main anchor (Pictured below), plus rode and chain and two danforths)

I've seen plow blades (where I grew up 4 miles from the Atlantic/5 miles from the Chesapeake Bay) collect that much rust just over one Winter, but after that first 100' or so in the dirt being pulled by me on a dual wheel Oliver Tractor when 6 cylinder diesel engine they look as good as new. Quite shiny in fact! (tractor and plow similar to pictures except dual rear wheels and 7 bottom plow w/trailing wheel and hydraulic lowering)

However, no one should totally go on the opinions shared on an internet forum no matter what experience any poster claims to have. The final decision is up to the owner/skipper.

A good example is newbie skipper's replacing perfectly good electronics. The same can be done with anchors and they don't even cost that much to relieve a worry

Even in the bay I've know all my life. I didn't venture across the lower 20 miles until I'd tested my new old boat and it's equipment repeatedly on short overnighters and only then did I sail it the 70 miles South to it's present location.

As it turned out, the last 20 miles sailed were during a small craft advisory but it was a downwind sail which my boat (and one like the OP's) handle quite well.

The biggest mistake I made was stopping in the heavy seas coming off the ocean at the mouth of my new home creek to lower sail before going in since it was an unknown creek to me over here. Sailing in would have been much easier

Tom

[psp2psp2]

I opened up my wallet for 10mm stainless chain. We anchor a lot and sometimes for days at a time. The chain still looks great after years of use and I consider it one of the best equipment purchases I ever made. So how much rust is too much? I would say any.

Here’s a link to some video

https://youtu.be/zlO8vAowYgE

[mvmojo]

From what I can see in the picture, the rust doesn't look too bad. When metal rusts it expands about 10X, so 1/10th inch of rust represents abut 1/100th wasting of the underlying metal. If you're seeing pitting then it's likely time to consider new chain. If not, then it's probably OK - hit it with a wire brush and see what it looks like once some of the rust is removed. If it's flaking badly it will leave rust spots on your deck. You can clean them up with Tidy Bowl toilet cleaner or other phosphoric/oxalic acid mixes, but better to just replace the chain and start over. As for the anchor, lots of personal preference. I'm not a fan of CQR, but I like Bruce and many scorn them as well. Mine (110 lb) has always worked on MOJO, an 80,000 lb displacement trawler. (www.mvmojo.com)

[mako]

Originally Posted by psp2psp2

I opened up my wallet for 10mm stainless chain. We anchor a lot and sometimes for days at a time. The chain still looks great after years of use and I consider it one of the best equipment purchases I ever made.

It's funny to say this but I will anyway... that chain really looks pretty.

So does it really shed mud so much easier than galvanized?

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by makobuilders

It's funny to say this but I will anyway... that chain really looks pretty.

So does it really shed mud so much easier than galvanized?

A few pulls thru the mud will clean that surface rust right off most likely ……

Or he can just buy a new anchor and chain.

I once saw a new boat owner replace a 35lb CQR that was slightly rusty about like the one in the photo with a real pretty chrome 20lb CQR. It sure looked nice but I doubt it held as well as the rusty 35lb'er if it held at all in any wind

[Mike OReilly]

I’ve always thought that ss chain was not recommended because of the way it fails. The way ss corrodes makes the damage hard to see until it breaks. And isn’t ss less malleable, which would also lend itself to catastrophic failure vs galvanized that would stretch a bit first.

[mako]

Mike I have heard that also. However, has anyone here ever actually had their anchor chain fail???

[MartinR]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

And Delta, well, lets just say you couldn’t pay me to own one.

Why all the Delta bashing? Deltas provide good training, as you have to set them 3 times on average before they hold At least mine. It came with the boat, but I have to replace it. Anybody in the market for a stainless steel Delta, cheap?

The CQR on my last boat always set reliably and never dragged. But we had heavy chain to go with it.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by makobuilders

Mike I have heard that also. However, has anyone here ever actually had their anchor chain fail???

Good question… I’ve heard of very few. I’ve more often heard about mooring chain failures. At my current yacht club we just replaced some of the dock chains b/c some had failed.

I’m very curious about ss chain though. The lack of rusting is a clear benefit, but like I say, the way ss fails seems to argue against its use as anchor rode.

I just did a quick Duck Duck search, and came up with this technical summary from the British Stainless Steel Association.

https://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=100

The 316 types are used widely in marine applications, but their corrosion resistance in contact with seawater is limited and they cannot be considered 'corrosion proof' under all situations. They are susceptible to localized attack mechanisms, principally crevice and pitting corrosion. This limits the scope for the use of these steels in seawater contact.

*********

Originally Posted by MartinR

Why all the Delta bashing? Deltas provide good training, as you have to set them 3 times on average before they hold At least mine. It came with the boat, but I have to replace it. Anybody in the market for a stainless steel Delta, cheap?

The CQR on my last boat always set reliably and never dragged. But we had heavy chain to go with it.

Hmmm, good point. That’s certainly my experience with Deltas as well .

BTW, I’m not saying Deltas can’t work. The main problem I have with them is their ultimate holding power is low compared to just about any other anchor out there.

[Baba Buoy]

I priced the cost of galvanization in Los Angeles area: about $160/100lb. The cost of new 5/16" 92' galvanized chain is $162 and it weighs about 85lb. Apparently it is hardly justified to regalvanize chain in California.

[danfarrell]

Originally Posted by makobuilders

Mike I have heard that also. However, has anyone here ever actually had their anchor chain fail???

In After 50,000 Miles, Hal Roth recounts a story of chain failure due to all the extra chain getting wrapped around a coral head until the scope was 1:1, then the boat ripped it apart pitching up and down in waves. It's second hand, originally credited to Tom Neale , who is himself speaking of Ed Vessey's Tiburon. It's also the only story I've ever heard, but I'm quite the neophyte.

I worry more about the cost of stainless than its propensity to corrode, but it's nice that the cheaper rode is also the stronger, and possibly longer lived.

I apologize for not following through on better pics (had to get back for work and spent too much time digging through storage to get to the seacocks). But I'll take this advice to heart and will be back up there in 2 weeks at the latest, for more days.

Ive been researching anchors and chain and it seems to me that an ideal setup would be a 33 lb spade anchor ($600+), assuming it would fit on the roller (not sure a rocna or mantus would, but I'll ask a boat specific marling list), a couple hundred feet of 5/16 grade 40 (30 would probably be fine, right?) - ($400+) and a new gipsy ($??) for my lofrans royal windlass. That puts me well into the thousand range.

Might start with an anchor selection (I've read enough now to recognize the outdated engineering of the CQR) . Spades seem awful nice and have a good chance of fitting. Mantus seems well engineered, and maybe better made than rocna, but both might not clear the roller. We'll see what the baba forums think. 5/16 seems like the right size, but the quarter inch chain seems to have worked so far. I need to make a thorough inspection.

I'd hate to go with only a few fathoms of chain due to the convenience of swapping to chain on the windlass, but perhaps that's silly?

[mako]

Dan there are obviously many opinions on anchors/anchoring and it all depends on your particular needs and mindset. What depth do you regularly expect to anchor in? Can your boat handle the weight of 200ft of chain in the bow? Are you cruising to truly remote areas or high coral concentrations?

I'm still a big believer in heavier anchor and lighter rode. So let's say you regularly expect to anchor in 20ft or less water. How about 60ft of chain on a 45-60lb anchor (yes you may have to modify the bow roller). Could even stick with 1/4" chain since actual breakage events are rare. Or go with G70 if it is a big concern. Superior short scope performance. The nylon rode will rarely ever touch the seabed. You have a built-in snubber.