Avoiding races - how out of line was I?

[psk125]

Originally Posted by Djarraluda

Of course there is also the fact that many racers do not know the rules themselves. Racing some weeks ago, dead down wind approaching the mark on Stbd, a bigger boat comes inside me, on Pt and calls overlap. Having told him No, I am on Stbd he gets aggressive and pushes me, his crew using my staunchions as leverage until I hit the idiot on his hands and swore at him. The turkey blithely ignores port/Stbd regularly when it suits him
Roger

If he has an inside overlap at 3 boat lengths, he is entitled to room at the mark, even if you’re on starboard. You have to give him enough space and opportunity to make a “seamanlike” rounding. If you think his rounding is too wide and slow - unseamanlike - you can protest him. If you don’t think he has an overlap at the 3-length circle you can protest him, too. But you say he did have an overlap, and it seems that he thought it was at the appropriate distance from the mark. It appears that his fending off to avoid contact between your two boats kept you from breaking a second rule - though you now say that there was contact and that you left marks on his boat. If you weren’t anywhere near the mark, port/starboard applies, but you say you were approaching the mark. Sailboat racing is self-policed. If you don’t protest, people will continue to ignore the rules.

[psk125]

This discussion reminds me of a regatta at our club. We’re on a river, with a channel between moored boats or the shoreline that is about 50’ wide. It winds for about a half mile before it gets out to deeper water beyond a breakwater. 100 Blue Jays were tacking out, heading out to start the day’s racing. A 45’ sportfisherman was about half way up the channel when he came round a bend and saw the fleet coming out at him. He couldn’t turn around, so he backed out.

[Dooglas]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

No one is questioning that if you can politely stay clear do so... The OP from his description tried to.

I was responding to a post that insultingly implied the OP was rude for not reading the race committees mind when they were all over the channel.

Well, not quite. My reading of the situation as described was that the OP did not know what the buoy markers set by the race committee were for or how they were being used. He thought they marked the edge of the area used by racing sailboats, rather than the markers they would actually round while racing. Now, lack of knowledge of racing is not a hanging offense, but it is difficult to be polite if you have no idea what is going on.

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by AnglaisInHull

My (entirely non-expert) understanding is that boats racing have some kind of priority. But I think that if the give-way vessel is limited in ability blah blah the other still has an obligation to avoid collision. (Not to mention that it would have hurt him more than it hurt me.)

Only the Coast Guard can.authorize a special.event area and enforce limits on access to certain boats in organized and planned events. Other than that, which is not the case for usual club racing, boats participating in races must obey all the usual right of way rules.

NOW, As cruisers and fellow users of waters, we should avoid sailing near racing course marks as a matter of courtesy.

Sailing DDW is not a case of limited manoeverability. Barring incapacitated crew or equipment malfunction, if a cruiser really cannot change course at all, that is a case of very poor seamanship or more likely a case of just plain laziness.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by AnglaisInHull

My (entirely non-expert) understanding is that boats racing have some kind of priority. But I think that if the give-way vessel is limited in ability blah blah the other still has an obligation to avoid collision. (Not to mention that it would have hurt him more than it hurt me.)

No. Boats racing have no special rights. Staying out of their way is just a courtesy.

But, it sure is annoying when someone gets in your way while racing! [emoji35]

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

No. Boats racing have no special rights. Staying out of their way is just a courtesy.

But, it sure is annoying when someone gets in your way while racing! [emoji35]

And equally annoying when the race committee takes up the whole channel giving you no clear path to go thru...then the racers start yelling or giving obscene hand signals.

Courtesy goes both ways.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

And equally annoying when the race committee takes up the whole channel giving you no clear path to go thru...then the racers start yelling or giving obscene hand signals.

Courtesy goes both ways.

Yes, it does.

[Village Idiot]

perhaps, and I only saying perhaps, the perception that yachts racing enjoy special rights over those that aren't comes from what is now rule 24 of the Racing Rules of Sailing;

24.1 If reasonably possible, a boat not racing shall not interfere with a
boat that is racing.

But this rule is only applicable in the context where all boats are involved in racing activities at the time (eg different classes at a regatta). It's purpose is to differentiate between a yacht that is actually 'racing' at the time - i.e. after the preparatory signal and before they finish, as opposed to a yacht that is milling around between races, and particularly a yacht that has finished a race should keep well clear of boats in the same race that have yet to finish.

I don't think its even enforceable between yachts involved in racing activities, and it certainly doesnt play when one of the yachts has nothing to do with racing at all, when only the Colregs would apply.

But as others have said, it's at least polite not to interfere with racing yachts if you can avoid it

[Mirage35]

Originally Posted by Dooglas

Well, not quite. My reading of the situation as described was that the OP did not know what the buoy markers set by the race committee were for or how they were being used. He thought they marked the edge of the area used by racing sailboats, rather than the markers they would actually round while racing. Now, lack of knowledge of racing is not a hanging offense, but it is difficult to be polite if you have no idea what is going on.

Yup, I'll know better next time. And note that the official who spoke to me apparently didn't explain clearly enough (for my limited comprehension).

In general I try to be polite and make life easier for other boats where possible, regardless of who's the stand-on vessel.

[CFS Klopas]

It is enforceable between yachts participating in races, the penalty is disqualification from the race the boat is about to enter or just finished. The RRS actually has a provision to protest a boat in a different, completely unrelated race run by a different Club, though I don't know what that would get the protesting boat.

[Lemsteraak]

When the Race Committee gets involved, it is a little more serious than a protest, they disqualify racing boats. If you are racing in a series, it stings, you also look pretty stupid. Don't ask how I know....

[JBsurfin]

Originally Posted by dfelsent

As a former semi serious racer and a lifetime cruiser the real hot shot racers can use you as a screen to pick the competition.
Generally yelling while racing is a sign of insecurity. The consistently fast boats are quiet. And don’t respond to yelling other than the very few mandatory hails.


Race boats have priority only as a matter of courtesy.
I try to stay away but it’s not always prudent.

Race boats have priority / shouldn't even use that word, gives an indication that you should perhaps give that priority.. I'll stick with COREGS. When yelled at , I yell back "rules of the road apply only".. Once good things sailing, they can usually hear that.. Good day.

[CaptJPMcGuire]

In 65 years of sailing, boating and racing ONLY ONE (1) bad experience.

In the chanel approaching Nantucket Harbor a renowned YC was finishing it's Race Cruise. I was in a 38' Irwin ladened Cruiser. I was pointing as high as I could (48 deg) to enter the marked chanel. A beautiful Tall, Long FAST sloop came up to the channel on my port side --looked like he was on rails, He was pointing MUCH higher than I was. As he cam slightly abaft of beam he hailed "COMING UP" I hailed not racing --not motoring --no water to my starboard of the channel. He kept coming -ignoring my protesting. -He may have been being headed up by a leeward boat I don't know and there was no time to figure it out. I did my best to avoid blocking him but finally was forced to tack to starboard into the shallows on the bar.

He continued on and I lightly grounded. Tack was not complete so with a little engine power I backed out --fell off and continued. The USCG 41' Patrol boat came by and said "did he really push you aground?" I said YES.

I noted later in the day that his boat was moored just off the USCG Brayton Point Station --the boat seemed to have ALL ITS GEAR spread out on the deck--including anchor rode and sails. I guess it was a safety inspection. Anyone that arragrogant and stupid needs safety inspections.

If I was racing I had an OBSTRUCTION
As a Crusing boat I had him Leward he had 'rights' --but not to interfere -force a collision or to cause a grounding.

I imagine the Coast Guard explained that to him and his Club most likely took the proper action.

[clymbon]

Originally Posted by AnglaisInHull

My (entirely non-expert) understanding is that boats racing have some kind of priority...

No, as I understand it racers don't have any special priority. But it is polite to stay clear of a race, if you can. Try to stay well clear, so that the turbulence from your sails doesn't mess up their wind.


That said, as a racer you have to take things like this in stride. It's just part of the environment you have to be aware of.

[clymbon]

Originally Posted by Djarraluda

If he had gybed onto Stb, then yes, but he didn't. He was on Port, I was on Starboard...

Please read up on the rules regarding "room" at the mark. Under certain circumstances you can't force someone to miss rounding the mark, even if you otherwise have priority. Others have posted that this applies if the other boat has overlapped you within 3 boat-lengths of the mark. But I'm always fuzzy on the details. One of the things that's a mystery to me is - whose boat length? I sometimes race in "just for fun" mixed fleet races in which there are all different shapes and sizes of boats. 3 boat lengths for me may be six boat lengths for him!



However note that this doesn't apply at the start/finish line. If you have rights, e.g. leeward, you can luff someone up right into the bouy, forcing them to miss the line.



Again, I'm rather fuzzy on the racing rules, and unlike the COLREGs, they can vary depending on who is running the race. But it seems to me like you were in the wrong here, based on what you've written.