Avoiding races - how out of line was I?

[Mirage35]

I'm going to throw this one out since it's the sort of thing CF likes to discuss in detail. Was I completely in the wrong, just confused and lost, or something in between?

Situation: sailing through a familiar area, but there was a major small boat competition going on. At least four races at the same time, scattered around the area. We were under sail, pretty much direct downwind.

Approach: avoided the first bunch and took a course that would allow me to jibe before hitting the second bunch, and would then take me mostly clear of the mess. At about that time a race official boat approached us and asked us to stay outside of the race areas (my response: I'm trying to figure out what isn't a race area.) She clarified: stay outside of those green buoys, and then outside of the yellow ones farther down.

The problem: We made the jibe as planned and were outside the aforementioned green buoys, but obviously not far enough outside. I had misjudged the speed of the racing boats, so some of them were trying to make the turn while we were still in the area, and we were in the way.

Amusement: The closest of the bunch kept yelling "we're racing" as if it was some Harry Potter incantation that would make us disappear. When he realized it wasn't working he changed course. (Yes, I feel guilty about forcing a racer to change course, but at that point I was on deck rigging a preventer in anticipation of silly maneuvers as we tried to get out of there.)

Question: Okay, I now understand better than before that the buoys are just a general indication and I should probably leave a couple of cables extra room so they can make their turns. But, (1) given that I was outside the marked course as requested was I really in the wrong, and (2) once there, doing 3.5 kt DDW, WTF did they think I was going to do to get out of the way?

Okay, partly question, partly rant, lay into it.

[JimsCAL]

I feel your frustration. Bottom line is rules of the road still spply. So port/starboard and windward/leeward. Just because they are racing doesn't mean they don't apply to racers and non-racers crossing.

[Mirage35]

My (entirely non-expert) understanding is that boats racing have some kind of priority. But I think that if the give-way vessel is limited in ability blah blah the other still has an obligation to avoid collision. (Not to mention that it would have hurt him more than it hurt me.)

[StuM]

Somewhere in between?


It's polite to stay well clear of racers.
But racers don't have any entitlement over non-racers. COLREGs apply.


The yellow and green buoys would have been "marks" that the racers had to go around - not indicators of the "racing area". Racers will frequently be well outside of the lines between buoys and will often require several boat lengths of clear water when negotiating them (especially if they are bunched up together)




As an aside, another case of "nations divide by a common language"
To me ( non-US):



Jibe: 1. An insulting remark. 2. To be agreement with something.

Gybe: Change course by passing the stern through the wind.

[dfelsent]

As a former semi serious racer and a lifetime cruiser the real hot shot racers can use you as a screen to pick the competition.
Generally yelling while racing is a sign of insecurity. The consistently fast boats are quiet. And don’t respond to yelling other than the very few mandatory hails.


Race boats have priority only as a matter of courtesy.
I try to stay away but it’s not always prudent.

[sailorboy1]

The racers in my old grounds would set up their course right across the channel. i sometimes felt bad, but i wasn't willing to detour 6 miles to avoid the channel

[Montanan]

When someone yells, "I'm racing!" I just like to yell back, "Good on you, we are both sailing", or "Good Luck!", or "Bon Voyage!" Or if they are obstinate in tone and attitude, you can chose to reply: "Thou doth protest too much, me thinks!" Racers are quick to protest. They may or may not recognize Shakespeare when they hear it. I recall one cruiser stating that he yelled back: I'm commuting. And another yelling back, "Yea well I'm drunk" while he and his passengers held up their beers in a salute; and a third, simply states: I'm not! And then there was the guy who was actually a very accomplished racer in his day, once simply replied: "Well you fooled me."

I sure don't go looking to interfere with racers but if I got to go somewhere that crosses their course, I cross it or through it, and pay attention to the COLREGs. Or if I am overtaken by their more rapid boats, I just try to stand-on as best as conditions allow and warrant, trying to be "predictable" but then hey, I have to tack also and may not be able to point as close to the wind as they do or go as shallow as they do. If you try to move to stand clear of one that has approached too close for comfort, you are likely to interfere with an adjacent boat or another boat on a parallel path on your other side, so it is just best to proceed with a fashion of certainty and not reactiveness. Do recognize that they will be disqualified from a race or future races if they perform endangering maneuvers with non-racers. A protest lodged by a non-racer is taken very seriously by most racing committees and clubs. Just attempt to be fair and not favor one racer over another if you can with your maneuverings. Racers are nimble, or should be. Note that they don't own the water, nor have reservations or special status. Give them courtesy, but don't feel the least guilty about sharing the water way. You are just one more boat that they have to contend with amongst the typically many in the race and they should lay out their courses so as to be of least impact on ordinary traffic. I have seen markers placed in some of the worst congestion areas, and one just has to ask WTF? I recall a marina owner getting upset that a marker had been positioned very near the entrance to his marina so he just motored out and cut the marker free so that it would not be a navigational hazard which made for a very interesting race dynamic as it drifted in the wind and current, causing the closing racers to adjust to a moving target, fortunately it drifted away from the shoreline and not into the rocky shallows.

Heck it's just a race, not anything critically important, nor anything for a racer to get all uppity about. Only a loser in life gets uppity as a racer. I have had post race discussions with obstinate racers in the club bar putting them to disgrace amongst their peers. Sometimes you have to call persons out for what they are if they get too full of themselves.

When I did race, I found having to interact with non-racers added spice and strategy to the race because the non-racers are ultimately obliged to navigate based on COLREGs which have some distincts from the racing rules, and of course the racers have to follow COLREGs and you are expected to give greater clearance room when navigating near non-racers whereas racer get close enough to hand over Grey Poupon, rub rails, touch bow to aft, brush sails. Overlapping be a keen maneuver in racing, whereas getting anywhere near that close to a non-racer would be reason for mean words and fighting to break out. I'm sure you interfered far less than a stream of cargo ships transiting in the course way.

You were not out of line, they don't get to draw lines in the water or the sand. Racers actions often border on the reckless if the same maneuvers were accomplished by cruisers or commercial traffic. No different then when I used to race cars where one is routinely making contact and performing blocking maneuvers and trying to mess up the air of the following racers so that they can't draft or become destabilized, but which style of driving has no place in the ordinary world.

Now what is fun is when you as a comparatively under-crewed cruiser sail faster than their performance boats; they really don't like being overtaken and having to respond to your sound signal and then to stand-on to allow you the courtesy to proceed.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by StuM

It's polite to stay well clear of racers.
But racers don't have any entitlement over non-racers. COLREGs apply.

That's the sum of it. Technically you did nothing wrong, but with respect to courtesy you screwed the pooch. But they'll all survive and you'll doubtless be more observant/understanding next time around.

The buoys were likely turning marks, and so you had boats tacking up to them, potentially going fairly wide looking for better wind, current, or laying the mark. Who knows.

I raced a few times a week for a few years in Annapolis 52 weeks a year. Casual sailors who could not identify and steer clear of the course were a constant issue. We just sailed around them. If they were simply ignorant, yelling at them was not going to educate them (that hopefully happened when they found themselves right in the mosh pit). If they were just jerks, yelling would not help either. Boats crossing the course and interfering with your race is just a fact of life.

If I see race boats I immediately look for marks and try and figure out the course, which is not always easy. If I can't go entirely around I look for a break in the action...like passing behind the main pack, and hustle through as best I can.

And yeah, interfering with a race in light wind is going to piss of the participants. A true measure of a good sailor is how well they can get the boat moving in light airs, which can require some patient sail trim, weight shifting, and studious momentum conservation. Someone borking all that, where it will take you a minute to get back in the groove, can really ruin your race.

[Calif.Ted]

It's just a courtesy to avoid interfering with a race that a sailor expects from another sailor. He assumes you can see and identify from a long distance where the course and pack is going and easily avoid.

[Jim Cate]

I'm reminded of an incident in SF bay years ago. We were racing, approaching a turning mark to windward, fetching on starboard. A boat, participating in one of the many other races on the bay that day, was approaching the same mark on port. I called "starboard" as one does, and he responded "you *******, can't you see I'm racing?" I replied "I'm racing too and I'm on starboard". After a short moment he replied "well, you're STILL an *******", but he bore off and took our stern. It tickled me then and I still remember it some 35 years later... boat's name indelibly in my mind... "Moonshadow".

That guy was likely a nice enough chap off the racecourse, but in the heat of the moment, not so much! I try to remember such things now that my racing days are over!

Jim

[Calif.Ted]

I was working the pit on a boat in a "rookie regatta" where the helmsman had to be a first time racer. On a starboard tack he looked over his left shoulder at a boat within feet and started hollering "Starboard" over and over. I told him they were also starboard AND leeward, and we don't yell at the other boats anyway.

[Montanan]

I recall two incidents of coming upon racers when I was a kid on our sea scout ship, an AVR [sea air rescue] boat of WWII vintage. The first time a more senior sea scout was on the helm and we came upon a large group of dinghy sailors upwind of us heading in all directions of course but approaching towards us. The senior scout slowed the boat which had massive twin diesel engines and inquired to the skipper / leader of the Sea Scouts what would be an appropriate action. The skipper suggested that we continue to be underway but not make way, which would enable our MV to stand position and maintain steerage but let the SVs maneuver around and past us. There was both a current and a wind to contend which made a good learning challenge for the senior scout to use power of the twin engines to hold station by backing against the current and not slip windward. Dinghies can readily maneuver around you if you just let them, standing still on the water sure made it easy for them to sort out how to go past, whereas any attempt for us to move about would have been shear guessing what with the cluster of small SVs going every which way and not a lot of room in the channel for us to give way. Our give way was to go no way. We might not have avoided a collision but we sure were mitigating one occurring and any damage that may have arose. Our alternative was to just stop, turn around and then proceed in the same direction as the racing dinghies keeping ahead of the SVs and that option was definitely raised by the skipper as a viable and perhaps a wise option to have taken after the SVs had cleared our holding of station. Sometimes giving way could mean retreat and reverse direction staying ahead of the boat or boats coming your way, especially since we could go much faster, when the boat would go up on plane.

The second occurrence was with a larger gathering of about 40 racers of moderately larger sail craft, about 20 - 25 foot LOA range, almost all sloops and the kid at the helm was one of the younger scouts, so small that he had to stand on a wooden box like platform to avail persons of short stature to see forward when stationed behind the helm wheel. The kid slowed the boat promptly at a good distance upon sighting the SVs which were approaching and which sailors were also going helter skelter some on port tacks, some on starboard tacks and definitely strategically and frequently changing course to gain advantage with the other sailors. The young kid said to the skipper: "I don't know what they are going to do?" Our skipper, said to the young helmsperson, I don't know either, then suggested that the helmsperson, ask them, pointing at the fleet of SVs coming closer. The kid was smart and well book learned in navigation, so he fully comprehended the context of the skipper's remarks and was in glee being able to blast our ships horn for his first time with five short blasts indicating: "I don't understand your intentions". For a 63 foot boat, our Sea Scout Ship had some pretty powerful horns so the toot was with quite a bit of authority. Sure enough the racing fleet quit their rapid changes in tacks and sorted themselves into two rather equal gatherings with one group coursing towards our port side and the other towards our starboard while the kid helmsperson kept our MV, the SSS Revenge, slow ahead and passing with modest wake between the racers, with the racers immediately tacking back behind our stern just at tens of yards again maneuvering for advantage. All great fun to watch and with as least degree of disruption and safety. Lots of friendly waving from all parties and great learning situation for the Sea Scouters and especially a confidence builder for the very young scout at his early opportunity to be the helmsperson. Our skipper liked to let the kids learn by doing, albeit with a careful eye of oversight and words of guidance when needed. He would let the kids handle challenging situations unless it became obvious that it would beyond them, in which case he would substitute with a more experienced scout or if the situation warranted take the helm himself. It was a let down to all of us if he felt compelled to have to actually take the helm as we felt like we had let him down by not be up to the task, but he felt just the opposite, feeling that he had not prepared a scout or us scouts adequately, or did not adequately anticipate the difficulties or error in judgement or confusion that his crew were confronting and might make. He would like to talk through a situation before we implemented actions so that we could discuss options and a preferred plan.
Our failings were taken by him to be his failings but were always turned to be learning sessions. He always loved to see the youngsters mature in their skills and confidence and decision making and leadership. He would be especially made proud when a more skilled or learned scout mentored a younger or less skilled or learned scout. He sure made a lot of kids fond of being on the water, perhaps two generations, as I recall mid-aged fathers that had been skippered by him introducing their sons to Sea Scouts. Wish we had had a sailboat in addition to the wonderful MV as he would have been an awesome skipper to teach one sailing with his wonderful people skills.
Dang I miss him, now that I am recalling him, coming on five decades, since those times.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by AnglaisInHull

I'm going to throw this one out since it's the sort of thing CF likes to discuss in detail. Was I completely in the wrong, just confused and lost, or something in between?

Situation: sailing through a familiar area, but there was a major small boat competition going on. At least four races at the same time, scattered around the area. We were under sail, pretty much direct downwind.

Approach: avoided the first bunch and took a course that would allow me to jibe before hitting the second bunch, and would then take me mostly clear of the mess. At about that time a race official boat approached us and asked us to stay outside of the race areas (my response: I'm trying to figure out what isn't a race area.) She clarified: stay outside of those green buoys, and then outside of the yellow ones farther down.

The problem: We made the jibe as planned and were outside the aforementioned green buoys, but obviously not far enough outside. I had misjudged the speed of the racing boats, so some of them were trying to make the turn while we were still in the area, and we were in the way.

Amusement: The closest of the bunch kept yelling "we're racing" as if it was some Harry Potter incantation that would make us disappear. When he realized it wasn't working he changed course. (Yes, I feel guilty about forcing a racer to change course, but at that point I was on deck rigging a preventer in anticipation of silly maneuvers as we tried to get out of there.)

Question: Okay, I now understand better than before that the buoys are just a general indication and I should probably leave a couple of cables extra room so they can make their turns. But, (1) given that I was outside the marked course as requested was I really in the wrong, and (2) once there, doing 3.5 kt DDW, WTF did they think I was going to do to get out of the way?

Okay, partly question, partly rant, lay into it.

For racers, the vagaries of traffic are like the vagaries of wind shifts. Part of the deal and an obstacle like any other. As you've been correctly told, racers have no special status under the Rules whatsoever and are obligated to comply with the COLREGS. If you interfered with one boat, you gave a windfall to another, so don't feel too bad about it.



You should try to stay out of their way -- and it sounds like you care a lot, so good on you But don't put your vessel in danger to do so, and you don't need to jump through your behind to do it. If some interference takes place, it's not the end of the world, notwithstanding the yelling, which you should ignore.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Montanan

I recall two incidents of coming upon racers when I was a kid on our sea scout ship, . . . Dang I miss him, now that I am recalling him, coming on five decades, since those times.

Great stories; thanks for sharing!

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Suijin

That's the sum of it. Technically you did nothing wrong, but with respect to courtesy you screwed the pooch. But they'll all survive and you'll doubtless be more observant/understanding next time around.

Nope, the waterway was clearly not a closed course, so they have no special rights to the waterway.

The OP tried to avoid but as is common, the race courses are set up with no consideration of non-racing boats. A chase boat on either end who would run along side non-racing boats and POLITELY request that they stay to the west (east?) side of the channel would be far more effective and not leave people despising racers.