Can sailing upwind in 20 knots be fun?

[YARGESOL]

For me,sailing upwind in my cat is much more fun,than motoring upwind. My motors won't made a good velocity,the sails will. On my small motorsailer,which has narrow hull,it's still fun...but with dramatic 30+ hill...good,that I have double rudder-less chance for broaching

[Barra]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Beating to weather in sheltered water is one thing, and my wife will cook in those conditions, but usually we will wait till we arrive at our destination. Offshore is different. Often I will roll up the jib to reduce heel and slow the boat down for dinner preparation and eating. Heeling is not the only motion you get when you are going to weather. Even in a big cat the motion is violent and cooking can be dangerous-- the faster you go the harder you fall off the waves. In a smaller cat, you can add the slamming of the bridge deck to the fun.

So glad you have enlightened me that heeling is not the only boat motion when going to weather. Somehow in the thousands of miles ive covered i never figured that out. Probably because its all been done in sheltered waters apparently! What a lucky chap Ive been

As to the other boat motions alot depends on where you are located in the boat of course. Like many cats our galley is on the saloon bulkhead amidships and as such is the spot least subject to pitch and roll. Its surprisingly serene when you go in there from the cockpit and probably adds to why you accuse me of pedaling crap (ie lying).

Violent and dangerous to cook? Not so far and Ive seen some pretty interesting conditions in 5 years sailing the med on this particular boat (but we are talking about 20 knots on this thread not storms FFS!)

Only time Ive felt that way was in a 56 foot mono in the southern ocean but that was mainly running in gales and looking back my 42 foot cat would have handled that better I would say (no broaching, far less rolling).

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Beating to weather in sheltered water is one thing, and my wife will cook in those conditions, but usually we will wait till we arrive at our destination. Offshore is different. Often I will roll up the jib to reduce heel and slow the boat down for dinner preparation and eating. Heeling is not the only motion you get when you are going to weather. Even in a big cat the motion is violent and cooking can be dangerous-- the faster you go the harder you fall off the waves. In a smaller cat, you can add the slamming of the bridge deck to the fun.

We sailed from the Banks islands to Tanna, over 360 miles to windward, in trade winds always over 20 knots, often over 30 knots.

We didn't go without food. The motion wasn't ever "violent". Sailing the boat at sensible speeds made it perfectly liveable. We cooked, we ate, we read, made cups of coffee....

But as always in this forum, there's someone who knows more about sailing catamarans that the people who actually sail catamarans...

Was it enjoyable? Well it wasn't as much fun as going the other way.

[four winds]

One thing that seems to influence one's opinion on this is just what kind of sailing we do. Different for different folks, and maybe why we seem to disagree when in fact we would not if we had experienced predominantly similar conditions.

As an example, I expressed earlier enjoying beam-on true wind and seas with apparent wind just forward of the beam. A few posts later a respected member mentioned on-the-wind was a better motion than the swell on the beam.

Frankly I believe we're both correct. No single right answer.

If I'm coastal, hugging in close, with a offshore steady not gusty 20knots, and staying close to to avoid the 25-30 just a few miles further out, with a swell about 1 foot it's a friggin' gravy train. No or really almost no roll, very, very little pitch as well. The good wind has the boat nailed on track and the sea state can't over come it to any degree bothersome. Remember I said no gusts too.

This was a recent scenario where the boat managed 6.5 on 7 hullspeed. Sometimes down to 6.1, sometimes bumping 7. At 0300 when that feeling hits I went below the sit down and close my eyes, not sleep just a break, and a moment after I closed my eyes the sensation of absolute stillness hit me. So hard it startled me. My eyes popped open to confirm I was indeed still sailing and not jumping a dimension or tripping or something.

A fabulous overnight passage where earlier it was no trouble at all to cook a proper meal. No strap in, no water spashing, no trouble.

Now, I suspect if offsore, truly offshore, beam-on seas with a swell of a few meters I would change my tune quick and fast. Even well driven close to hull speed I quess there would be motion induced to the boat in roll and pitch of greater extent. And even at my experience level I can understand why on-the-wind would be better. Probably greatly reduced roll, and pitch I'm not sure but somewhat less.

Maybe one day I'll cross an ocean, no plans as yet though. Don't think a sea state of several meters would bother me, but I just have not had a chance to experience them, why would I? Never even had a front roll over me offshore, and the scattered storms I've encountered offshore had high winds but the sea state didn't build. Just blew the water airborne and was a light show.

Anyway, maybe I'm not a real cruiser, haven't crossed an ocean and my opinion don't count, that's fine. But we all enjoy being out there I think. And we experience it in a variety of circumstanses, adjusting methods as needed.

Maybe one day my Pearson 323 will be the first to circumnavigate. I'd be happy to retrace where it's been already from Nova Scotia to Trinidad.

Along the way I'll have some idea of what to expect just from reading of the experiences others on this forum. And in spite of the "seeming to be" lack of consensus and sometimes judgemental statements.

Carry on, sorry to ramble.

[JPA Cate]

[QUOTE=kish;2269744]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

For me, it's fun, for a while. In 20 true, we'd have one reef in the main and be using the staysail.

This may not be a popular opinion, but I think cruisers who have never had their heart in racing mainly motorsail to windward, or just motor. Most don't care about sail shape, either, and this is at least partly due to not having raced and learned what to look for, and how to drive their boat efficiently. IMO, most don't care to spend what it costs to get really good sails. The expense, is stupid, for someone who doesn't care about the results.

Sailing upwind and making a course to weather is called beating. Think punishment. Not necessarily, punishment.


Beating assuming a 45 degree angle to the true wind, [which is way optimistic for a cruiser (think 60+ degrees)] This depends entirely on whether or not you select a boat with sailing characteristics that allow her to go well to windward. For example, for us, 34 deg off the apparent wind is the sweet spot, and 45 is cracked off.involves at best travelling twice the distance with ten times the discomfort due to heeling and pounding off of waves. Agree, it can make people seasick whose bodies don't like any jerky motion, like mine. I medicate (Stugeron, which works for me). IMO, a well found boat does not pound egregiously, if her forward sections are rounded enough, though can be made to do so by overpowering her. For us, we would be traveling another 50% in distance over the ground, but we would be far more comfortable sailing than motoring into it.

With leeway and wind driven waves, the situation is intolerable to most stomachs and is hard on the rig due to intermittent loading. Agree that pounding is hard on equipment, beating into 20-25, not so much.
Some year ago in an offshore race in a 35 ft racing boat, we had a destination directly to weather some 40 miles away to the North and in 25-30 knot wind and three metre seas we could sail at 6 knots SOG to the north west and then tack to the north east, but the VMG was less than 1 knot in both cases. It is certainly true that an ugly, mixed wave train can impair progress, but one experience on a 35 foot mono does not equate the cruising lifestyle at all. We have sometimes found our destination to be to windward, and inconvenient to change (due to a suddenly popped up cyclone, and our desire to reach a good cyclone anchorage, some other less pressing reason. In that case, we pounded our way into 40-45 knot winds from daybreak till we got there, tack on tack in square chop. Might well have lost the boat at the other anchorage that was closer and easier to get to, so we opted for the safer one. This was not open ocean, but between islands in Vanuatu.


So we were travelling heeled over at 6 knots but were flat tacking -- making little progress towards our destination, This would mean 40 hours to cover 40 miles. Retiring was a no-brainer.
Beating is acceptable to inshore racers for a short leg, but unacceptable for longer distances typical of cruising boats in open water. This is true, I remember Eric Hiscox heaving to to cook meals, and to wait for the weather to change. Nothing wrong with that, although we tend to slow the boat down for comfort and to continue. But then, that has to do with my body, which doesn't mind being heeled as long as it isn't 'too' lurchy.

An axiom of cruising is "Gentlemen don't beat". The way I heard that, it is "'gentlemen' never go to windward," and I guess that's fine for a "gentleman"; however, that is not something I would ever claim to be!
All the long distance races including the Vendee Globe Vendée Globe 2016-2017
are designed to be downwind rather than upwind. [True, it's ultimately probably easier on the boats, especially at the speeds they're going. Still, going to windward on a close reach in light airs is some of the most beautiful sailing you'll see in a lifetime.

I have replied at such length because especially for the younger newbies, who have a chance to try different boats, maybe racing on other people's boats, the fact is that the best way to learn about sail trim is racing, unless you're an absolutely brilliant self instructor, who takes notes and reviews them, something most people don't want to bother with. Having someone call sail trim for you can teach you a whole lot in a very short time, helps for helming, as well.

As for me, my boat is my retirement home for the present, and we sail her conservatively.


In my many years of cruising, Jim and I have done one marathon 6800 n. mi. to windward one year, but not hard on the wind for all of it, not closer than about 35 apparent, much of it cracked off to 40-45. Was it a cruising boat? No, it was a retired unsuccessful race boat that we turned into a cruiser and lived aboard for 18 yrs. In it, it's ability to go to windward made our lives a whole lot easier. So when I hear the old saw about never going to windward, I just sort of shine it on. I'm a big girl, I know people have prejudices. But to the person who is looking for a boat, I would say, look for a boat that has good all round sailing characteristics, which I think the OP's boat does, if he had proper sails to suit it.




Ann

[accomplice]

Good topic. Much has been written in the past 100+ posts, but there are a few points I don't recall being made.

First, as wind speed picks up we will switch from genoa to staysail, which sheets inboard of the shrouds and points better. Also with the headsail lower and closer to the center of the boat we flatten our and the motion tends to even out with less yawning. 20k TWS may not be enough to get sufficient drive from our staysail though.

Secomd, even without switching sails, the boat sails closer to windward as the wind pipes up. At low TWS the boat's speed moves the AWA far forward; but at higher winspeed, the boat's speed has a much a lower effect on the direction of the apparent wind. In light wind we may tack through 100 drgrees or more. In 20k+, we can tack through better than 90. Yes, drag costs us a few degrees, but that doesnt take over as a factor for us until almost 30k.

Lastly, my wife doesnt like going to weather, so i try to plan our cruising so she doesnt habe to, but i frequently will have to on a delivery passage, withour her. In these circumstances I prioritize safety, forward progress and comfort over fun and will crank up the diesel if i need to go directly upwind.


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[waterman46]

Originally Posted by four winds

When going coastal to the next spot, especially if an overnighter, I wait for an offshore wind with apparent wind just ahead of the beam.
.

I assume you are retired or unemployed. Here on the left coast you will be waiting from March through September before you'll get any relief from the nor'westers!

Upwind on the Bay is not too much fun single or doublehanded. I seldom sail upwind on San Francisco Bay on the weekend as there is too much traffic and tacking my crab crusher requires an act of Congress.

On the ocean I sometimes enjoy upwind work when I can have more time between the calisthenics. Getting somewhere upwind under sail alone, is a challenge and there is a definite satisfaction in it.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by waterman46

I assume you are retired or unemployed. Here on the left coast you will be waiting from March through September before you'll get any relief from the nor'westers!

May through November here the winds are constant Sou'Easters. December to April they are more variable - then they always blow from where you want to go, when you want to

[chuckr]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Yea, we all do it when we have to, but the OP asked if it was fun .

3 days in 30-35k winds on an ocean crossing with big waves gets really old real fast -

we also did a 5 day crossing from the San Blas to Jamaica and were 45 deg or so on the wind the entire time - fun - the first day was but it got real old after that -

headed north to Odessa off Crimea we had about 50 deg and it was early morning on day 3 of a 3 day sail and it was great as we had little wind for most of the trip and we sailed for 5-6 hours and it was fun but eventually ended when the wind continued to clock to our nose as we knew it would do as the front that was coming started to move in -

a few hours of it can be fun but over a few hours not

[Paul Elliott]

I read a lot of comments like this:

Originally Posted by chuckr

3 days in 30-35k winds on an ocean crossing with big waves gets really old real fast -

we also did a 5 day crossing from the San Blas to Jamaica and were 45 deg or so on the wind the entire time - fun - the first day was but it got real old after that -

[etc]

I've found, at least for me, that the first day or two of any extended passage will be exciting and anxious. It's a big deal to launch yourself onto the deep blue sea, and no matter how well-prepared we are, we would be stupid not to feel a little nervous.

After that you settle in. After five days or so you start thinking "are we there yet???" You feel the fatigue and haven't truly gotten used to the watch schedule and the motion. A few more days and you're getting bored. You are missing friends and family. This can be a difficult part of the voyage.

But after that you really get comfortable, no matter what the sea-state (within reason). You feel part of the boat, and maybe a little bit at one with the universe. You stop worrying about life beyond the boat and the horizon. This is a truly magical time for me.

Once we get within a couple days of landfall, I'm thinking about just sailing on -- I don't want it to stop. But I also am thinking about those on shore waiting for me and I can't wait to see them again. I definitely have mixed feelings, but so far home and family have always won.

So I wonder if the one-week trips aren't precisely the wrong duration. They're just long enough to get bored and lonely, but not long enough to let you break through the stress and fatigue to discover the joy out there and within yourself.

[Skabeeb]

I enjoy sailing in 20 plus upwind. Everything set very flat with the outhaul and vang with a single reef in the main and 90% Genoa. I will sail at 30 degrees no problem with the boom traveled up the the centerline. Our little Ericson 32 slices like a knife through hot butter.

The admiral likes it that way because heeling is greatly diminished when close hauled. If I have to bear off to 60, she doesn't like that so much....lol


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[TheThunderbird]

The waves make the difference, not the wind

Also, routing is stable, easier for the AP, and if any you can bear off to 50/60AWA for comfort.

I mean sailing upwind, not tacking ip every other minute, which is stressing, noisy, worrying..


If you complain tacking in 20kn TWS, ONE OF THESE Do APPLY:

poor boat design (pounding)
Too small boat (fresh wind on a 40' is a gentle breeze on a 54' and a puff on a 70')
Lazy pigs on board (bar the ladies)
bad management of sails, and or bad sails

Would you mind uphill roads when biking??? It is the same...

[beiland]

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

I read a lot of comments like this:

I've found, at least for me, that the first day or two of any extended passage will be exciting and anxious. It's a big deal to launch yourself onto the deep blue sea, and no matter how well-prepared we are, we would be stupid not to feel a little nervous.

After that you settle in. After five days or so you start thinking "are we there yet???" You feel the fatigue and haven't truly gotten used to the watch schedule and the motion. A few more days and you're getting bored. You are missing friends and family. This can be a difficult part of the voyage.

But after that you really get comfortable, no matter what the sea-state (within reason). You feel part of the boat, and maybe a little bit at one with the universe. You stop worrying about life beyond the boat and the horizon. This is a truly magical time for me.

Once we get within a couple days of landfall, I'm thinking about just sailing on -- I don't want it to stop. But I also am thinking about those on shore waiting for me and I can't wait to see them again. I definitely have mixed feelings, but so far home and family have always won.

So I wonder if the one-week trips aren't precisely the wrong duration. They're just long enough to get bored and lonely, but not long enough to let you break through the stress and fatigue to discover the joy out there and within yourself.

Very interesting posting. I think it rings true.

[pete33458]

Depends on your definition of fun. When I was younger I thought pounding into the waves while heeled over so far you are standing on the sides was fun. Now I sail upwind in 20kt only if there is a very good reason, and for no longer than necessary!

I think a lot has to do with your crew, as well. When beating in high winds, the only way to make good windward progress is by constant adjustment of course and trim, and most people find that to be monotonous after a few hours...me too. I've had my fill of racing, and sailing for me is for relaxation, not accomplishment.

My favorite sailing is a broad reach with double reefed main and single reefed genny in winds of about 25kt! Sweet!

Pete

[Polux]

I guess that are some confusion here. The Thread is not about cruising but if it is fun to sail upwind with 20k.

There are a lot of type of cruisers and most of them consider sailing more as a mean to cruise than as a genuine sporting activity (I have been asking personally to fellow cruisers).

For the ones that have so much fun in cruising as in sailing no doubt that upwind sailing will be a rewarding experience. For those that use sailing as a mean to an end and have no particular interest in sailing as a sport/activity (and that does not means racing) they would chose not go upwind with 20k or even less and if they get caught the probably would be motoring.

Last sailing season started for us in Roma and brought us to near the Northern border between Greece and Turkey, on the Thracian sea. A bit of an erratic course, visiting a lot of places and doing about 2000nm. That was about 90% of upwind sailing since we went all the time against the prevailing winds and we motored very little but we have done so because I like it that way and I have fun doing that.

My wife is a cruiser too and if it was her that sailed the boat we would have been motoring most of the time. She belongs to the group that see sailing as a mean not an end in itself. She would have preferred us to have a cruising motorboat. What convinced her on sailboats is that we both like to travel a lot and the price of diesel and the price of the revisions and use of two engines is more than what we can afford. So I am quite happy not to having the money for that

Having fun going upwind depends more on the type of cruiser and the way he (or she) considers sailing, than in being possible to have fun going upwind with 20k. Sure some cruisers have. It depends mostly on the kind of sailor one his and the way one takes sailing and cruising.

That is about the same to ask if someone can have pleasure driving 200 kms on a "terrible" mountain twisting narrow road. For many it would be a torment, for the ones that enjoy driving and have a car that can be handled well, it will be a pleasure.