Can sailing upwind in 20 knots be fun?

[Don C L]

Really, the more important question is, why is it all the places I want to go to are always upwind?

[Souzag818]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Really, the more important question is, why is it all the places I want to go to are always upwind?

True...In Puget Sound you can be going upwind in an inlet thinking "Man when I get around this point it'll be on the beam and beautiful". Then you get there, turn 90 degrees...and it's still on the nose!!!! Most frustrating place I've ever sailed...

[pete33458]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Really, the more important question is, why is it all the places I want to go to are always upwind?

And on the return trip, it's STILL upwind!!!!!!

[Barra]

Originally Posted by Polux

I guess that are some confusion here. The Thread is not about cruising but if it is fun to sail upwind with 20k.

There are a lot of type of cruisers and most of them consider sailing more as a mean to cruise than as a genuine sporting activity (I have been asking personally to fellow cruisers).

For the ones that have so much fun in cruising as in sailing no doubt that upwind sailing will be a rewarding experience. For those that use sailing as a mean to an end and have no particular interest in sailing as a sport/activity (and that does not means racing) they would chose not go upwind with 20k or even less and if they get caught the probably would be motoring.

Last sailing season started for us in Roma and brought us to near the Northern border between Greece and Turkey, on the Thracian sea. A bit of an erratic course, visiting a lot of places and doing about 2000nm. That was about 90% of upwind sailing since we went all the time against the prevailing winds and we motored very little but we have done so because I like it that way and I have fun doing that.

My wife is a cruiser too and if it was her that sailed the boat we would have been motoring most of the time. She belongs to the group that see sailing as a mean not an end in itself. She would have preferred us to have a cruising motorboat. What convinced her on sailboats is that we both like to travel a lot and the price of diesel and the price of the revisions and use of two engines is more than what we can afford. So I am quite happy not to having the money for that

Having fun going upwind depends more on the type of cruiser and the way he (or she) considers sailing, than in being possible to have fun going upwind with 20k. Sure some cruisers have. It depends mostly on the kind of sailor one his and the way one takes sailing and cruising.

That is about the same to ask if someone can have pleasure driving 200 kms on a "terrible" mountain twisting narrow road. For many it would be a torment, for the ones that enjoy driving and have a car that can be handled well, it will be a pleasure.

I dont always agree with your posts polux but you are spot on 100% right with this one IMHO!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Really, the more important question is, why is it all the places I want to go to are always upwind?

Because of apparent wind, more than half, and maybe a lot more than half, of all possible directions you can sail, will have the wind ahead of the beam.

It's why upwind ability is so important, if you want to be able to get places under sail.

[beiland]

Time spent "on the wind"
Another interesting observation from the log books of an ocean cruising sailor:

"Mike, a number of years ago I went through the log book of my trip through the S. Pacific to New Zealand and back. In 174 days at sea over 5 years the ketch Saga spent about 10 days actually on the wind. While there were certainly times when it would be good to go up wind better, taking a boat to sea that is hard to sail just to optimize those 10 days would be stupid.

During the same cruise I spent about 34 days with the chute up, where I didn't use the mizzen because it didn't do anything but slow me down. I was sailing about 160 to 170 degrees apparent wind.

The conclusion I have to come to for a cruising boat is that one should optimize reaching so long as the boat isn't un-safe. Lee shores are still dangerous."

Beau
This came as a response to this quote:
Quote:
...However the lift to drag ratio upwind will always favor the minimum number of sails, currently that is the sloop for larger boats. Once you get out of the racing arena it's a different ballgame anyway and what appear huge differences in a racer become insignificant on a passagemaker.
BTW, this posting came from a really good subject thread entitled
Why a Yawl or Ketch instead of a sloop

[Exile]

Probably a stupid question, and assuming all other variables are equal (even though they never are), does use of a staysail set 1/3 or so back from the bow diminish the boat's ability to point? My boat is sloop-rigged but has a (detachable) inner forestay for a staysail that runs back to the mast (visible in my avatar). It's mainly designed for heavier winds (30 kts+) and to be run w/o the jib. I honestly don't have enough experience sailing upwind in those heavier conditions to make a judgment.

[beiland]

Originally Posted by Exile

... My boat is sloop-rigged but has a (detachable) inner forestay for a staysail that runs back to the mast (visible in my avatar).

Do you have a larger photo?
Perhaps its my eyes but I can not tell where your inner forestay is?

[Exile]

Originally Posted by beiland

Do you have a larger photo?
Perhaps its my eyes but I can not tell where your inner forestay is?

Might have a larger photo or two. You can probably see the bagged staysail on the foredeck. It's attached to the inner forestay which is just forward of the bag. Might give an idea where it sets btwn. bow & mast.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Exile

Probably a stupid question, and assuming all other variables are equal (even though they never are), does use of a staysail set 1/3 or so back from the bow diminish the boat's ability to point? My boat is sloop-rigged but has a (detachable) inner forestay for a staysail that runs back to the mast (visible in my avatar). It's mainly designed for heavier winds (30 kts+) and to be run w/o the jib. I honestly don't have enough experience sailing upwind in those heavier conditions to make a judgment.

Not stupid. Judging from your description it sounds like your staysail is not meant to augment the jib in lighter air, i.e. your boat is not cutter rigged, is that right? If it is designed to be used in heavier winds it is a heavier weight sail and is meant to be used with a reefed main to keep the sails' center of effort where it belongs. Off the wind it may give you more horsepower but IMO, on the wind, used with the genoa, it is just more drag than drive, so yes, diminishes pointing ability.
Here are just a couple links that might be helpful,
https://www.quantumsails.com/resourc...ail-trim-guide
Rig for a Staysail | Cruising World

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Polux

I guess that are some confusion here. The Thread is not about cruising but if it is fun to sail upwind with 20k.

There are a lot of type of cruisers and most of them consider sailing more as a mean to cruise than as a genuine sporting activity (I have been asking personally to fellow cruisers).

For the ones that have so much fun in cruising as in sailing no doubt that upwind sailing will be a rewarding experience. For those that use sailing as a mean to an end and have no particular interest in sailing as a sport/activity (and that does not means racing) they would chose not go upwind with 20k or even less and if they get caught the probably would be motoring.
........

I guess it depends a bit by what you mean by having fun, but I don't buy your analysis here. If its blowing 20kt+ true out of the direction you are trying to go and the seas are running then motoring straight into it generally makes things even less uncomfortable, aka less fun. Most cruisers I know turn on the engine when the winds are light, not to bash into headwinds. Maybe turn it on if you are trying to close the last few hours of a multi-day passage and the winds turn on the nose.

I just can't see this romanticized, macho sport-man image of beating into winds and seas for days on end and saying how much fun it is. It is just something to get through so you you can write about on the Interweb.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Because of apparent wind, more than half, and maybe a lot more than half, of all possible directions you can sail, will have the wind ahead of the beam.

It's why upwind ability is so important, if you want to be able to get places under sail.

One a really fast boat one will sail more upwind than on a slow boat and on a super fats one the sailing is always upwind, even if the waves are not on the bow, the wind will be.

Maybe one day cruiser boats will also sail always upwind. It would be a good sign

[barnakiel]

Upwind in +20kts is only fun when this implies a short haul to a windward anchorage in say Caribbean.

Elsewhere, it is either slow and 'comfortable' or fast and very uncomfortable.

We have a light boat with a narrow entry and a long keel, so she does her job very well upwind but even so I somewhat ease the sheets on long upwind rides (like the one from Guadeloupe to the Azores - before you run out of wind).

b.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Cats have their strong points but sailing upwind is not one of them.

That question is best posed of the America's Cup crews I suppose. They sail those slow boats....

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Polux

One a really fast boat one will sail more upwind than on a slow boat and on a super fats one the sailing is always upwind, even if the waves are not on the bow, the wind will be.

Maybe one day cruiser boats will also sail always upwind. It would be a good sign

Aha! So I have had a super fast boat all this time and I didn't even know it! I'm king of the world! Ok now where is that Triton I wanted to race a couple weeks ago?