Can sailing upwind in 20 knots be fun?

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

This should get the cat guys stirred up.

This is not true, but I'll let them tell you about it

What is it they say about barking dogs and trolls....

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Yes, I'm sure they will show up with some remedial excuse.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Or some true information which is beyond your experience

I told you so!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

It depends on the size and weight of the boat. .

Quite, bashing into the top end of a F5 hour after hour particulalry with a big Spring tide under you is something to be avoided if possible. We have done it but only to escape being kidnapped by striking French fishermen

Prefer to sit and wait for the weather to change which in NW Europe it does, frequently.

[LakeSuperior]

Up wind in Lake Superior with 20 knots of wind and closely spaced steep 3 - 4 ft waves is a recipe for going nowhere fast.

If you are cruising and trying to make a destination and not day sailing then:

Every once in a while a 3 sigma wave knocks you back to 1 knot of SOG

Hard to make a reasonable VMG

Lots of boat motion with pounding

Wet with ice water in your face

Just not a fun time

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Quite, bashing into the top end of a F5 hour after hour particulalry with a big Spring tide under you is something to be avoided if possible. We have done it but only to escape being kidnapped by striking French fishermen

Prefer to sit and wait for the weather to change which in NW Europe it does, frequently.

Indeed. Add wind against tide to this and it becomes really untenable.

Also in enclosed waters like the Baltic (and I guess Great Lakes; Med; etc.) you get a nasty square sea in 20 knots true, which is somewhat similar to a wind against tide sea, and which can be nearly impossible to bash through.

I agree that this is a case for waiting -- if you can.


God, I'll never forget my second North Sea crossing, trying to get dead upwind in 20 and even 25 TWS. We would get a fair tide -- which would make the waves square and impossible to bash through. Then a foul tide -- which would even out the shape of the waves, but then we had the tide against us!! Never again! It was like Sisyphyus rolling the rock up the hill over and over again . . .

Should have stayed in the bar on Helgoland . . .

[Tessellate]

Originally Posted by Scottuk

At the other end of the spectrum I will try to pinch to where I will slow the boat down slightly and sail flatter. In the right conditions I have found by pointing higher and having less leeway I end up going faster to my destination. Again this takes concentration and what I usually do then is focus at maintaining a constant speed and ensuring the headsail doesn't collapse with the emphases being on the headsail.

ScottUk, this is what I was doing too, but when you pinch up, doesn't that cause your foresail to start to luff, and then fill quite powerfully once you bear off? Someone else asked what I meant by a luff and fill - this is what I meant.

I want to pinch up into gusts in order to maintain a comfortable heel angle (toerail in the water is beyond ideal heel for our boat and will actually slow it down). But if I pinch up even slightly too much, the reefed genoa will luff, because we can't get it trimmed properly for a pinching angle. So then when I fall off after the gust, the genoa fills loudly. And as we pinch and fall off for each wave or gust, our heel angle changes about 5 degrees (15->20, 20->15, back and forth). This is uncomfortable and completely unlike our upwind performance in 5-15, in which our heel angle is pretty much constant and the helm can be locked.

I do have racing experience, but it's mostly summer racing, which rarely gets 20 knots. And when it does get that high, racers usually don't reef. So I'm not sure how much more I can learn from what racers do, since my goal is comfort over speed.

[Tessellate]

Thanks Ann T Cate, I think you're right - I do need to talk to a sailmaker. But sails are expensive, and I already know what the sailmaker will say - buy new sails, of course. So I'm looking to get advice from sailors first, and also hoping there might be techniques others use to make high wind upwind work more tolerable even with old sails.

It sounds like what's in common for cruisers who find high wind upwind sailing enjoyable for short periods of time is: 1) more experience (simply getting more conditioned to higher winds might be what does it), and 2) newer sails or sails configured well for high wind upwind sailing (ex, staysail / cutter on a roller furler).

The things I had in mind that might be more skill/experienced based, were around preparation. We keep our boat in "go now" sail ready state at all times for 0-15 upwind or 0-20 downwind. But preping it for more than that takes a number of extra steps. And we do it rarely enough that I tend to forget a step or two the next time it's done. So it seems that a boat prep checklist would be a good idea.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Tessellate

ScottUk, this is what I was doing too, but when you pinch up, doesn't that cause your foresail to start to luff, and then fill quite powerfully once you bear off? Someone else asked what I meant by a luff and fill - this is what I meant.

I want to pinch up into gusts in order to maintain a comfortable heel angle (toerail in the water is beyond ideal heel for our boat and will actually slow it down). But if I pinch up even slightly too much, the reefed genoa will luff, because we can't get it trimmed properly for a pinching angle. So then when I fall off after the gust, the genoa fills loudly. And as we pinch and fall off for each wave or gust, our heel angle changes about 5 degrees (15->20, 20->15, back and forth). This is uncomfortable and completely unlike our upwind performance in 5-15, in which our heel angle is pretty much constant and the helm can be locked.

I do have racing experience, but it's mostly summer racing, which rarely gets 20 knots. And when it does get that high, racers usually don't reef. So I'm not sure how much more I can learn from what racers do, since my goal is comfort over speed.

That's certainly not what I do. Pinching makes leeway spike way up and VMG to windward falls off a cliff. Also, going slower, the head seas will stop you.

I on the contrary fall off a bit and trade some AWA for speed. You really need the speed to get through the head seas. This is when a large, powerful boat with a long waterline really comes into its own.

In any case, speed is life in beating to windward, just like it is in flying. Speed gets you through the rough water and it counteracts leeway. Even a close reach, if you're fast, will get you upwind faster, than pinching in rough sea conditions.

Racers don't reef going upwind because reefed sails, especially headsails, don't work when going upwind. You'd rather struggle with weather helm and excessive heel, than with a sail which is producing more drag than lift because it's reefed down. This is unique to beating -- on any other point of sail, of course, it is far better to reef and sail flat.

If you plan to make a lot of miles upwind, you need to be sure to have on board a quality headsail which is sized to allow you to use it unreefed in the maximum wind condition you expect to be sailing in. Even if your mainsail is blown out crap, a quality headsail of the right size will get you upwind.

[Polux]

I like it, even if on med conditions it can be quite uncomfortable for the one that is not having fun at the wheel and sleeping or cooking on those conditions, without going slower can be very challenging. Very nice for some hours between Islands, I mean for me, my wife gets seasick and I know a lot of people that gets seasick with the rapid motion of the boat on those conditions.

Doing that on the Atlantic typical offshore conditions is much more "softer" and relaxing. I would say that the boat motion you would experience on the short med waves with 20k wind are about the same you will experience with 30k on the Atlantic, going upwind.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Polux

. . . Doing that on the Atlantic typical offshore conditions is much more "softer" and relaxing. I would say that the boat motion you would experience on the short med waves with 20k wind are about the same you will experience with 30k on the Atlantic, going upwind.

I certainly agree that sailing upwind in 20 knots TWS in the Med is brutal. Really bash you around. 20 knots TWS upwind in the open Atlantic is certainly much easier.

But 20 knots TWS in the Med is NOT like 30 knots TWS in the Atlantic. 30 knots TWS in the Atlantic is still reasonably comfortable -- IF you have the right sails for it. The seas build up, but unless there is wind over tide, they won't be steep, and they won't yet be breaking at that wind force.

30 knots TWS is just where I change from my blade jib to my staysail. The staysail is self-tacking and made of extra-heavy cloth (it doubles as storm jib), so the shape is not great (I can help it a bit by barber-hauling), so I lose about 5 degrees AWA compared to the unreefed blade, or even more since I will fall off to get more speed, once I've changed to the staysail. But I can get upwind in 30 knots TWS in the open Atlantic. I cannot do it in the Baltic or Med. In the Baltic in 30 knots TWS, if my destination is upwind, I look for somewhere to get the anchor down.

Even sailing on a close reach in 25 to 30 TWS this past summer, in the Baltic, I got bashed so hard that a part of my rail was broken off. Ocean sailors can't really quite imagine what these waters are like in those conditions. Can you say "green water on deck"?

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

That's certainly not what I do. Pinching makes leeway spike way up and VMG to windward falls off a cliff. Also, going slower, the head seas will stop you.

I on the contrary fall off a bit and trade some AWA for speed. You really need the speed to get through the head seas. This is when a large, powerful boat with a long waterline really comes into its own.

In any case, speed is life in beating to windward, just like it is in flying. Speed gets you through the rough water and it counteracts leeway. Even a close reach, if you're fast, will get you upwind faster, than pinching in rough sea conditions.

Racers don't reef going upwind because reefed sails, especially headsails, don't work when going upwind. You'd rather struggle with weather helm and excessive heel, than with a sail which is producing more drag than lift because it's reefed down. This is unique to beating -- on any other point of sail, of course, it is far better to reef and sail flat.

If you plan to make a lot of miles upwind, you need to be sure to have on board a quality headsail which is sized to allow you to use it unreefed in the maximum wind condition you expect to be sailing in. Even if your mainsail is blown out crap, a quality headsail of the right size will get you upwind.

Definitely ......... fall off a bit when trying to sail upwind in heavy wind.

Here with the steep waves and tide you go nowhere fast if you try to pinch up. It just slows you down way to much and the wind and waves take over.

Sometimes though if lacking sea room, you'll have to do both but you must keep your speed up and pick you spots to head up then fall back off ...... while watching the depth gauge!

That (pinching) works great though on a nice light wind day on the lake or protected water

[Tessellate]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

That's certainly not what I do. Pinching makes leeway spike way up and VMG to windward falls off a cliff. Also, going slower, the head seas will stop you.

I on the contrary fall off a bit and trade some AWA for speed. You really need the speed to get through the head seas. This is when a large, powerful boat with a long waterline really comes into its own.

Interesting. I did read your other posts about your upwind bashes in northern seas. Those were some really difficult sea states.

What if boat speed was fine though (near hull speed) and getting through waves was not a problem, but winds are gusty? Would you still not pinch up into gusts? We had mostly 17 true wind but gusts to 22. A 5 knot gust is actually pretty strong - only 30% absolute difference, but with power being an exponential function, it's actually more.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Tessellate

Interesting. I did read your other posts about your upwind bashes in northern seas. Those were some really difficult sea states.

What if boat speed was fine though (near hull speed) and getting through waves was not a problem, but winds are gusty? Would you still not pinch up into gusts? We had mostly 17 true wind but gusts to 22. A 5 knot gust is actually pretty strong - only 30% absolute difference, but with power being an exponential function, it's actually more.

Oh, yes. Maybe I would. I was not talking about gusts.

If you're getting near hull speed when going upwind, at a reasonable AWA, then you're doing very well indeed

I don't usually try to go quite that fast. My hull speed is about 9.5. On a really tough upwind bash, I try to keep boat speed above about 8. This can be hard if the waves are steep and keep knocking you back.

In better weather, that's also usually about the right speed on my boat -- balancing AWA and boat speed to get max VMG to windward. In really beautiful conditions, I might flirt with 9 going upwind.

[Scottuk]

Originally Posted by Tessellate

ScottUk, this is what I was doing too, but when you pinch up, doesn't that cause your foresail to start to luff, and then fill quite powerfully once you bear off? Someone else asked what I meant by a luff and fill - this is what I meant.

I want to pinch up into gusts in order to maintain a comfortable heel angle (toerail in the water is beyond ideal heel for our boat and will actually slow it down). But if I pinch up even slightly too much, the reefed genoa will luff, because we can't get it trimmed properly for a pinching angle. So then when I fall off after the gust, the genoa fills loudly. And as we pinch and fall off for each wave or gust, our heel angle changes about 5 degrees (15->20, 20->15, back and forth). This is uncomfortable and completely unlike our upwind performance in 5-15, in which our heel angle is pretty much constant and the helm can be locked.

I do have racing experience, but it's mostly summer racing, which rarely gets 20 knots. And when it does get that high, racers usually don't reef. So I'm not sure how much more I can learn from what racers do, since my goal is comfort over speed.

That is why the sail needs to be flat so pressure can be kept on the sail at all times. It can be a narrow angle so requires concentration. If you are unable to do it with your sail wardrobe without luffing I would fall off to ensure against flogging. The technique is better with longer period waves.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Some of the points of going upwind have been covered. But off of the top of my head, below are some of the big impediments to making good VMG. Hopefully this "Thesis" will help some to better enjoy their boats, & yield performance gains.

Also, if each of the below points only accounts for a 1-2 deg loss of pointing, or 0.1kt, then if you're guilty of many of them, you’re not going to go to weather well.
So tune up your instruments, & nav based instruments, so that you can track your own progress (as in log it). In order to see what your baseline is now, & then later, when you make changes. Plus you can also use said info to compare your real world performance to your Polars.

1) Poor sail quality/old, blown out sails which cause you to heel excessively, & make loads of leeway. When folks get new sails, they invariably rant about how good they are, & the performance boosts they give. Almost always saying that they should have bought them sooner… had only they known.
This, even though experts had told them as much.

2) Poor sail trim. Including not using the traveler (or having one), & not properly positioning one’s jib leads. Leads to excessive heeling, & leeway. As well as requiring overcompensation with the helm, from a poorly balanced boat/rig.
Also, not changing sails when it’s warranted, as it’s “too much work”. Which contributes to #1.

3) Poorly cared for bottom, & foils. These two induce a lot of drag, & also cause more leeway due to reduced lift. Plus they make it harder to drive effectively, as the flow on said foils detaches more easily, & re-attaches more slowly. So that when this happens, many helmsmen tend to overcompensate. And “rudder” is Latin for brake (AKA steering by drag inducing device).

4) Too much gear topsides causing huge amounts of parasitic drag. And since the wind’s force is a squared function, this only increases as the breeze builds. Recall the America’s Cup racers in their full body Speedo’s? It was for good reason that such garments are worn.

5) Excess weight & windage aloft. Again, more pitching, & heeling. Which bounces the air out of your sails, slowing the boat with every knock. “See carbon fiber spars”, & “synthetic rigging” -> The why

6) Excess weight onboard in general. A biggie on cruising boats, due to their very nature. Offload everything, & I mean everything, at least yearly, if not more often. And then only put back what you NEED.
This excess weight also contributes to increased pitching, which detaches air flow from the sails, & water flow from your foils. Both of which are SLOW, & Greatly add to leeway.

7) Excess weight in the boat’s ends. Mostly self-explanatory, but let me give you an example. I’ve raced on 40 ton, 80’ Maxi’s where when I at 100kg went forward of the mast, fully half of the crew was literally screaming at me to get back aft. And my onboard job entailed that I worked AT the mast. This, with me massing only 25kg more than the bowman. And yeah he’d also take crap for being up forward too much.
So little things matter. Including that many racing boats have zero paint inside, or cleats up forward, & back aft. SIC

8) Proper rig tune. Even if your mast is a tree trunk, & “non-adjustable”, properly tuning it enables you to have the correct balance of helm for a region’s most common conditions, & how your boat handles them. So that with it, the boat almost sails herself. Thus needing little rudder input. Which, excessive helm use slows you down, impairs pointing, & increases leeway.

9) If hand steering, be smooth, use small amounts of rudder, & drive your S's.

There’s more, but said data is archived in my brain’s deeper recesses. Though if you want to see some of the above scientifically explained & proven, click on the link below. Where designer John Shuttleworth explains how most of the above performance factors apply (to multihulls). It’s interesting reading.
Considerations for Seaworthiness